[Janeytwo]

Hey Jackie,

So sorry I didn't reply yesterday. Had to work. I would love to see the picture you wrote about but don't know how to get to it. It's been a while since I've been on the forums. Could you tell me how to find it?

I did the walk-away thing too. Oddly enough, to the real-time meetings, one of which I had started. And one of the members lived right down the street but I just couldn't deal anymore. Powerful stuff, running is.

But Al-Anon.... I think that's why I was able to come here and begin this journey. Though the old messages, the old co-dependent wall, comes flying up each time I write. That old poison about how people are emailing each other about how to find a way to boot me off. I'm sure most people here know the drill...know it all too well.


God Bless ya Jackie!

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

hollyhunter

Jackie, That poor child looks so abandoned and confused. Just wanted to give her a hug and tell her its OK.

It was such a scary time for me..
My dad was taken away to the war.. He did not have to go till 1944 or 1945.. I do not remember the exact date.. And mom worked at the ration office.. in Hamilton Ontario..

And myself and my sister were put into daycare.. and daycare was not sorted at that time and I acted out..
And apparently they put me in a closet..

I took that glimpse of myself from a formal photo of my dad and us.. when he was home on leave..
I had a stamp on my hand and I remember showing it to the camera..
I have lost the photo and I gave that painting away to a fellow ACA..
I guess I could not handle it..

Thanks for the hug.. here I am 65 years old.. and part of me is still there..
But then I guess that applies to a lot of us..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

So sorry I didn't reply yesterday. Had to work.

I usually come on line every two days.. I know I could stay on here forever but I have to limit myself..

If you take a week to reply it really does not matter.. The message is the message and can be replied to at any time..

I would love to see the picture you wrote about but don't know how to get to it. It's been a while since I've been on the forums. Could you tell me how to find it?

You click on my name in the blue area.. Jackiejdajda.. and then in the drop down menu.. you will see.. ‘View Public Profile’

Click on that and when you get to my public profile you scroll down till you get to.. the picture section..

I did the walk-away thing too. Oddly enough, to the real-time meetings, one of which I had started. And one of the members lived right down the street but I just couldn't deal anymore. Powerful stuff, running is.

One of my sponsors said to me.. “You are right where you are supposed to be.”
I know I was not ready to meet up with my bson till he was well into his twenties..
And this is a process.. I think you are getting ready for a reunion and or searching for your babies.. now grown up..
Ready to stop.. but then.. who knows.. I sure as heck do not know what is right for you..
Its wrong to know what is right for others.. Everyone learns on their own terms.. very very important to me..

But Al-Anon.... I think that's why I was able to come here and begin this journey. Though the old messages, the old co-dependent wall, comes flying up each time I write. That old poison about how people are emailing each other about how to find a way to boot me off. I'm sure most people here know the drill...know it all too well.

I ended up getting kicked off of a few places.. I was angry and I told everyone what I thought.. and heck did not think..
This place is different.. The moderators come down hard on a person that is doing a personal attack.. so one just does not do it..
One shares.. like at a real time meeting and folks can take what they want and leave the rest..

Jackie

[kakuehl]

Janey, do I assume the adoptions took place 30 years ago? I'm trying to gradually piece together your story.

Unfortunately, when we stuff down trama like relinquishment, the memories have a way of working their way out. It's been interesting for me to discover how much things I thought I had dealt with have resurfaced now that D and I are in reunion. I can only imagine what it's been like for you.

[Janeytwo]

Dear Kathy,

Hi. Yes I gave my babies up 30 years ago. It must be confusing for people in here. I'm afraid I sort of write piecemeal because I shoved this stuff so far down that it's coming back up in short bursts, unfortunately sort of like a machine gun...just sort of rat-a-tat-tat. Then I stand there crying.

And I am shocked at some of the things I'm writing. I have grown accustomed to thinking of myself as less than everyone else, less than my sisters and I'd grown accustomed to the silence of my own pain.

You wrote this remarkable line.....>>>>>trama like relinquishment<<<<<

I hadn't thought of it as trauma. I've thought of it as punishment and I know that stems from my family. See the number rule there is you trip but you get back up immediately and you don't ever acknowledge that anything tripped you to start with. That is how I've seen this....as a trip and a fall into disgrace. But it's one that can't be erased in the minds of my family. My poor babies are ghosts to them, reminder ghosts of the truth of our lives, what we all lived through. And that I think they won't forgive me for. They do not want to be reminded.

Everyone in here is teaching me a new terminology. This term "relinquish". I am trying to use it instead of "giving up". Relinquished my children...instead of gave them up. Somehow that is important.

Much peace to you,

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

You wrote this remarkable line.....>>>>>trama like relinquishment<<<<<

I hadn't thought of it as trauma. I've thought of it as punishment and I know that stems from my family. See the number rule there is you trip but you get back up immediately and you don't ever acknowledge that anything tripped you to start with. That is how I've seen this....as a trip and a fall into disgrace. But it's one that can't be erased in the minds of my family. My poor babies are ghosts to them, reminder ghosts of the truth of our lives, what we all lived through. And that I think they won't forgive me for. They do not want to be reminded.

Some of us learn to ‘comply’ when we are children.. it’s how we matter..(its how I mattered) Its how we fit into the 'dynamics' of the family..

Co-dependency is the word used sometimes..

Here is John Bradshaws definition of Co-dependency in his book Homecoming.. page 8


I define co-dependence as a dis-ease characterized by a loss of identity. To be co-dependent is to be out of touch with one’s feelings, needs and desires.


page 9… same chapter.


Co-dependence is fostered in unhealthy family systems. For example, everyone in an alcoholic family becomes co-dependent on the alcoholics drinking. Because the drinking is so life-threatening to each family member, they adapt to becoming chronically alert (hypervigilant). Adaptation to stress is intended by nature to be a temporary state. It was never intended to be chronic. Over time, a person living with the chronic distress of alcoholic behavior loses touch with his own internal cues – his own feelings, needs, and desires..


Janey grieving for the two children you gave up.. is a way in..


Children need security and healthy modeling of emotions in order to understand their own inner signals. They also need help in separating their thoughts from their feelings. When the family environment is filled with violence (chemical, emotional, physical, or sexual), the child must focus solely on the outside. Over time he loses the ability to generate self-esteem from within. Without a healthy inner life, one is exiled to trying to find fulfillment on the outside. This is co-dependence, and it is a symptom of the wounded inner child. Co-dependent behavior indicates that the person’s childhood needs were unmet, and therefore he cannot know who he is..


The line.. . Without a healthy inner life, one is exiled to trying to find fulfillment on the outside.

We take so much when we are codependent.. take such a lot on to ourselves..
My moms drinking got much worse after I gave my son up.. and it was all my fault..and because it was all my fault she could call me up and say anything to me.. anything..
Cut me to the core and I would take it.. take it on and own it..
It’s a terrible way to live.. and there is a way out..


From another of Bradshaws books..
Healing the Shame that Binds You.. page 14


Shame as Co-dependency

Much has been written about co-dependency.. All agree that it is about the loss of selfhood. Co-dependency is a condition wherein one has no inner life. Happiness is on the outside. Good feelings and self validation lie on the outside. They can never be generated from within. Pia Mellody’s definition of co-dependency is a “state of dis-ease whereby the authentic self is unknown or kept hidden, so that a sense of self….. of mattering…. of esteem and connectedness to others is distorted, creating pain and distorted relationships.”
There is no significant difference in that definition and the way I have described internalized shame. It is my belief that internalized shame is the essence of co-dependency.


These books and others is/was how I found my way out of my internalized shame.. and my inability to say no to my mom.. "NO! I am beautiful the way I am right now."
She did not think me beautiful.. You have seen the pictures of me in my profile.. I am beautiful.. I am a good person.. I am helpful.. I am..

That little girl in my inner child painting was afraid (one of the things I did in my search for self that painting).. she lived in a house that was sooo incredibly difficult to live in.. Dad drank mom got mad then she showed him how to really drink.. how to really act out..
My authentic self was hidden away for a long time.. but I learned..

I remember when I would read these self help books and post on boards.. and say.. "That’s me that’s me and that’s me again"..

But I had to turn around.. and start my own journey to self.. I had to actually do what was asked of me..
The inner child work.. the journaling till I had my ‘aha’ moments about me.. me..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

[quote=Jackiejdajda] Some of us learn to ‘comply’ when we are children.. it’s how we matter..(its how I mattered) Its how we fit into the 'dynamics' of the family..<<<

That is so true. Jackie, my therapist called people like us "sin eaters"...the ones the family heaps all shame and blame onto. I can see how in what happened to me I was a convenient target of that. With my huge belly and ten-thousand-yard-stare I must have been impossible to ignore.

What you said about grieving going down the same road as alcoholism...the pushing away...the numbing out....I had never thought of it that way. That is interesting. The old cues of "this is not what I am" "I am in control of my grief". I should start a journal to myself on how that lie affected my choices because I'm sure it did.


>>>The line.. . Without a healthy inner life, one is exiled to trying to find fulfillment on the outside.

We take so much when we are codependent.. take such a lot on to ourselves..
My moms drinking got much worse after I gave my son up..<<<<<<

Jackie, it's strange but this really struck me. My mother got a lot harder after my babies. There were of course other things going on in the house but her ability (for lack of a better word) to turn her back on any and all pain just grew. Remembering my step-dad knocking my brother's head into a wall over and over and my mom just turning away to do the dishes. Awful memory.... It must be an even worse one for her. (P.S. By that time I was so beaten down and broken I didn't do anything it either. So sorry bro....)

I am wondering how much of my babies she took upon herself. I opened the door once through a letter in order to find out but the door remains closed so there is no real way to know.

>>>>internalized shame is the essence of co-dependency.[/color] My authentic self was hidden away for a long time.. but I learned.. <<<<<<

After the grief, after getting through that (no thanks to that frigging clock) that is what will be left for me to do isn't it? Jackie, I thought I'd graduated. What was I telling myself....I know better than this and have less excuse than a lot of people. And we both know that's true.

By the way, you are beautiful! :-)

Thanks for having the courage to take a journey that would help others on the path,

Janey

[Janeytwo]

>>>>>here I am 65 years old.. and part of me is still there..
But then I guess that applies to a lot of us..<<<<<

Dear Jackie,

Wiser words were never spoken. :-)

Janey

[Jackiejdajda]

I wrote
Some of us learn to ‘comply’ when we are children.. it’s how we matter..(its how I mattered) Its how we fit into the 'dynamics' of the family..<<<

That is so true. Jackie, my therapist called people like us "sin eaters"...the ones the family heaps all shame and blame onto.

Internalized shame.. I still to this day know I have places where she rules.. I basically ignore them now.. and tell myself.. you are being the result of your childhood..

I can see how in what happened to me I was a convenient target of that. With my huge belly and ten-thousand-yard-stare I must have been impossible to ignore.

My old sponsor would say.. “Like a deer caught in the headlights”..
Its so messed up.. A young woman expected to sort and deal and be and compensate and all the other things..
And you were just a young woman.. trying to live a life..

What you said about grieving going down the same road as alcoholism...the pushing away...the numbing out....I had never thought of it that way. That is interesting. The old cues of "this is not what I am" "I am in control of my grief". I should start a journal to myself on how that lie affected my choices because I'm sure it did.

A therapist said to me once.. “You have not grieved the loss of your baby.. your child.”
I had never thought of that.. My baby was not dead.. I had stopped at the first step.. I was in control.. ha..
I did not understand at the time the fact that we need to grieve a lot of things that happen in our lives.. Process the emotions.. cry.. rage.. accept..
It’s a process.. its not a thing that happens in one day..
And I know I have a real hard time finding my emotions.. I used everything I could to push the tears back.. and if I did cry.. if something did trigger me I would go and hide and not share it with anyone..
I can remember my mom using the term.. blubbering when I was a kid..
“She is blubbering again.”

What a word.. one must never do that blubbering..

I think that before we go into reunion.. we need to sort our feeling self.. as much as we can..
This because reunion is beyond difficult for some.. The issues come flooding back the triggers come to fore.. and we spiral into things we have not felt or thought for years..
If we have worked through some of it we have ways to tell ourselves that we can and need to stop the negative thinking or the bad thinking.. or the fantasy thinking.. and we need to get on firm ground and actually see what is really going down on terms of the relinquished son or daughter..

I quoted
>>>The line.. . Without a healthy inner life, one is exiled to trying to find fulfillment on the outside.

We take so much when we are codependent.. take such a lot on to ourselves..
My moms drinking got much worse after I gave my son up..<<<<<<

Jackie, it's strange but this really struck me. My mother got a lot harder after my babies. There were of course other things going on in the house but her ability (for lack of a better word) to turn her back on any and all pain just grew. Remembering my step-dad knocking my brother's head into a wall over and over and my mom just turning away to do the dishes. Awful memory.... It must be an even worse one for her. (P.S. By that time I was so beaten down and broken I didn't do anything it either. So sorry bro....)

But this is not your fault.. my moms drinking was not my fault..
That’s the thing about this.. this codependent stuff.. we take it on our selves..
Your childhood sounds terrible.. difficult.. and you gettng pregnant was you IMO bouncing around or running from what was impossible to live..

We do not have a healthy inner life.. we do not learn that the reason why your mom got cold and my mom drank.. worse.. was because they were not able to cope with their lives.. and it is not was not us..
And it was not my fault she drank and she does not have a hold on me.. because it was all my fault..

We are not them.. they are not us.. We have a right to separate from them..

I am wondering how much of my babies she took upon herself. I opened the door once through a letter in order to find out but the door remains closed so there is no real way to know.

Her words and deeds are not for you to sort.. Not yours to take on..
I know I am beautiful.. in many ways.. but I do not feel it.. I got something in my brain that cuts that out when I get feeling bad.. or exposed..
How you feel on terms of you giving the babies up and your moms reaction is something that needs to be looked at..
Your automatic thoughts..
Journaling.. yes..

I quoted…
>>>>internalized shame [i]is the essence of co-dependency. [i] My authentic self was hidden away for a long time.. but I learned.. <<<<<<

After the grief, after getting through that (no thanks to that frigging clock) that is what will be left for me to do isn't it?

And sorting that internalized shame is very very freeing..
Bradshaw wrote..(from memory).. I did not feel shame.. I was shame..

When you are shame.. I do not think we can find a way out.. When we feel shame we blush or something and then correct what went down or change our ways.. or take the cues.. etc..
But when we are shame.. it is part of our being.. it is who we are..

And the way out is talking about it.. therapy…. journaling.. reading the self help books.. Sharing on these boards and really looking for those moments when we understand.. and get it.. that what happened is wrong.. the scripts in our brains and hearts are false scripts..

I went back and shared with my therapist some of the things that happened to me when I was a kid and he forced me to look at the abuse and not make excuses for my parents and their poor parenting..

Jackie, I thought I'd graduated. What was I telling myself....I know better than this and have less excuse than a lot of people. And we both know that's true.

I have not graduated.. I still got an inability in me to understand that I am perfect just as I am..
I told that to my mom once..
She used to call me up and tell me all the things that were wrong with me..
And I would take it on.. and be sad/depressed for a while.. and my husband would say.. “Did your mom call?”
And I would live in terror of her calls..

Then I told her I was beautiful.. it was like jumping off of a cliff.. she sputtered..
"Bars open!" she would say..
But that was the time I actually told her..

My dad would tell me that if I disagreed with her.. he would have to suffer.. she would rage etc..
Get really drunk..

I had to do it.. for me.. sorry dad..

But still its in there.. I still feel like a failure on terms of her.. but I know its part of what is ingrained in me.. and I just let it go..

Jackie the beautiful

[kakuehl]

As I read both your posts, Jackie and Janey, I'm reminded of what I learned while in seminary. (They like to turn you inside out and get you to deal with yourelf before they set you loose on other people, lol.) All of us need to grieve the parents we didn't have. I truly believe there is no such thing as a truly functional family. No one parents perfectly and we need to grieve the lack of the parent we needed. Think about it: we deny to ourselves that our parents were ever wrong (it was us, we were "bad", etc.); we feel great anger at our parents and blame them for who we are and what we do... If we are healthy, we work through that grief to the point where we accept our parents for who they are and who they aren't... and we accept ourselves for who we are.. and who we aren't. Unfortunately, as often happens with "grief work." We don't neatly finish with one stage and move to the next. We move back and forth; stress can send us backward... just when we think we've reached acceptance, something new appears. Just as anniversaries of a deceased loved one (birthdays, anniversaries, date of death/funeral, holidays special to that loved one) can send us into a depression, special dates having to do with our relinquished children can and will effect us.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by kakuehl

As I read both your posts, Jackie and Janey, I'm reminded of what I learned while in seminary. (They like to turn you inside out and get you to deal with yourelf before they set you loose on other people, lol.) All of us need to grieve the parents we didn't have. I truly believe there is no such thing as a truly functional family. No one parents perfectly and we need to grieve the lack of the parent we needed. Think about it: we deny to ourselves that our parents were ever wrong (it was us, we were "bad", etc.); we feel great anger at our parents and blame them for who we are and what we do... If we are healthy, we work through that grief to the point where we accept our parents for who they are and who they aren't... and we accept ourselves for who we are.. and who we aren't. Unfortunately, as often happens with "grief work." We don't neatly finish with one stage and move to the next. We move back and forth; stress can send us backward... just when we think we've reached acceptance, something new appears. Just as anniversaries of a deceased loved one (birthdays, anniversaries, date of death/funeral, holidays special to that loved one) can send us into a depression, special dates having to do with our relinquished children can and will effect us.

Kathy that is so very true. As an adoptee I grew up with moms "faults", not really very many but heck she was human and did make some mistakes....if you see me suddlenly sroll off the keyboard it is probaly her dope slapping me from heaven! I knew it was just the vaguary's of being human, I complained as a teen to my friends, they complained about their mothers....all part of the gig. But ther was a peice of me that often wondered if I was brought up with my biomom would it have been differnt in the complaints of mothers....well no it just would have been differnt complaints...I guess..LOL! Both of my mothers have made mistakes but I don't recall EVER being horribly angry at them. If I did start to I would realize that I was being ridulous because their is no such thing as perfect.

Now if I could just get my own kids to understand that"there is no such thing as a truly functional family" And that " no ones parents perfectly" I'll be all set. But being the ages they are(16-25) I think I have a while to wait for their understanding!!!

Kathy, I am so glad that you were turned inside out in the seminary...and that you have been let loose!!!!! LOL

[soprano]

Janey,

I have been reading all your postings, and responded to a few... I wanted to thank you for having the courage to go through your journey here. I personally have alot of trouble articulating my feelings in writing--I'm often misinterpreted. I have found (as I'm sure others here have as well) many common threads in your story and your process. I hope that by reading your process, I will gain insight into my own.

You have my hugs and my respect,

Soprano

[kakuehl]

Originally Posted by dpen6

Kathy that is so very true. As an adoptee I grew up with moms "faults", not really very many but heck she was human and did make some mistakes....if you see me suddlenly sroll off the keyboard it is probaly her dope slapping me from heaven! I knew it was just the vaguary's of being human, I complained as a teen to my friends, they complained about their mothers....all part of the gig. But ther was a peice of me that often wondered if I was brought up with my biomom would it have been differnt in the complaints of mothers....well no it just would have been differnt complaints...I guess..LOL! Both of my mothers have made mistakes but I don't recall EVER being horribly angry at them. If I did start to I would realize that I was being ridulous because their is no such thing as perfect.

Now if I could just get my own kids to understand that"there is no such thing as a truly functional family" And that " no ones parents perfectly" I'll be all set. But being the ages they are(16-25) I think I have a while to wait for their understanding!!!

Kathy, I am so glad that you were turned inside out in the seminary...and that you have been let loose!!!!! LOL

Thank you, You seem to have learned the lesson pretty early. My daughter did as well, by the time she graduated from college she was pretty ok with me. (I can, of course, still manage to push her buttons occasionally.) My son, who will be 32 in July is finally beginning to stop blaming his upbringing for his failings. (Sigh, I always just say I'm glad he has something to talk about in therapy.)

[Janeytwo]

[quote=Jackiejdajda]Internalized shame.. I used everything I could to push the tears back.. and if I did cry.. if something did trigger me I would go and hide and not share it with anyone..
I can remember my mom using the term.. blubbering when I was a kid..
“She is blubbering again.”

What a word.. one must never do that blubbering.. <<<


Wow! It must be a European heritage thing! How much I used to hear that "quit your blubbering". (Me looking down shame-faced). I actually remembering saying this to my eldest daughter a few times. Once I got into recovery, I apologized to her for that and worked with her on getting herself to cry. Too bad I didn't work on MYSELF with that. Oooo boy!

>>>>And we need to get on firm ground and actually see what is really going down on terms of the relinquished son or daughter.. <<<<<<

It's funny you know....as I'm posting in here I'm seeing things I had forgotten, realities I had brushed under the table. My favorite saying back then....."if you don't like your name change it". I took that and painted this new Janey, a respectably shiney-white Janey with an immaculate kitchen and a knack for baking, I painted her with a rose-colored brush. I painted that poor dirty-white "street urchin" Janey under the rug where I thought she belonged.

Now as I write I can hear the Janey I left behind...she's crying and asking me how I could have done that to myself? And on top of that of course, the old enemy codepency saying "You must not relay things to people. You must not admit what you've seen. People will be despise you and you will be thought of as a weak, simpering, blubbering fool".

(Letting out a long breath of air from between my lips upon writing that). Oh Jackie, I remember my mom calling me weak because of Al-Anon. Taking me to lunch and telling me... "I try to be proud of you Janey, then you go and open your big mouth and spill your guts to strangers like a weak little coward. It's pathetic."

Translation: I was pathetic.

Mom....this is Janey saying that I love you and I'm beginning to understand how fear can drive the mind and the heart. That is a sad and lonely land. Your pain must be great and I hope that one day we can connect despite us both and heal.

>>>How you feel on terms of you giving the babies up and your moms reaction is something that needs to be looked at.. Your automatic thoughts.. <<<<<

Indeed! Reaction instead of action....the curse of this earth. How wars start....how people give up on their lives completely......

As always, thank you for your wisdom Jackie the beautiful!

Janey

[Janeytwo]

Dear Soprano,

What a wonderful compliment you have paid me! Thank you so very much (crying as I read what you're written). Yesterday morning I kept coming here then turning away, sure that people thought I was rediculous. I am wrestling tremendously with my fear of rejection right now and what you've written has given me a much-needed shot in the arm.

And I would like to pay you a compliment in return...tell you someting I have picked up on about you in the responses you have given....

In my best Motorcity-ese.

Hey man, :-) You're big and bad and ya got cast iron nads!

Translation: I hear your voice Soprano and it is a true voice, fearless, and honest. On the road or in the alley it would be a priviledge to walk with you because you are the kind that would have a friend's back no matter how inclement the weather became.

That is what I sense.

All good things to you in this life,

Janey