[Leigh131313]

can an eparent use a court appointed attorney for an adoption plan?? I didn't even think that would be cause for getting one. Perhaps it's just that people don't use them because they probably have very little (if any) adoption experience...

But I'm not convinced you'd be provided one.

[SuddenlySusan]

Originally Posted by Leigh131313

Ok - one thing about aquiring a lawyer without the agency....

If the eparent decides to parent - who foots the bill? Is the eparent then responsible?

See, with our agency - we take on the fees.....If the emom decides to parent, the lawyer fees are still ours to pay. but if doing it independent of an agency.....i don't know how that would work.

I agree - I'm just pondering the way it would have to work.

Well, Leigh, I admit that I'm not an attorney and have little legal experience, but I'll throw out some fodder here...

Consider personal injury attorneys: who foots the bill if the attorney loses the case? The "bill" is absorbed by the attorney. I'd think that this method forces the attorney to be thorough in the investigation prior to the proceeding.

If it worked the same way with legal representation for the emom/bmom, it would behoove the attorney to make sure the emom/bmom was firm in her desire to place. There would be the occasional situation where the emom/bmom changed her mind and decided to parent. In that case, the attorney would absorb the cost.

If the emom/bmom was forced to cover the expenses, at least we no longer live in such an unethical culture that would tell a young mother that she could not bring her child home until the hospital/maternity home fees were paid -- and that is what used to happen. Extortion, plain and simple. Think about what you would do for your own children. I would do whatever I had to do to pay the attorney fees if I changed my mind about placement. Just like aparents are willing to pay just about whatever it takes to adopt. Same thing.

In addition, most attorneys are on the pro bono list, and do provide occasional free service to those in need when they are called upon to do so.

Again, I firmly believe that ALL emoms/bmoms should have THEIR OWN legal representation which is not connected to any agency. Period. In my humble opinion, of course.

Peace,
Susan
mother-out-law
(bmom in reunion)

[Hadley2]

Sorry, to clarify:

No, eparents and pbirthparents are not now entitled--as in getting the state to pay for--to my knowledge, to legal representation. The idea is a proposal: How about having court-appointed (and state-paid, when needed) representation for emoms and pbirthmothers who cannot afford their own attorney?

If that existed, then pregnancy counseling could be separated from adoption agencies and the agencies could be barred from burning the candle at both ends--misrepresenting themselves and their services to eparents and pbirthparents when in fact, bottom line, they are being paid by the paparents and therefore represent their interests.

It would not work the way an attorney would work in a lawsuit because there are no damages to "win." It might work similarly to legal aid and (warning-no comparison or analogy here!!! no need to take offense!!) court-appointed lawyers for defendants.

That might take care of the legal end of things, I think, it would be a (big) matter of convincing state legislatures to mandate independent representation for eparents and pbparents and provide financial assistance for those who can't afford it.

The other piece is good, solid, UNBIASED, and thorough information and counseling about the physical and emotional risks and benefits of ALL options--parenting vs. not parenting, abortion, adoption placement, guardianship or custody agreements, etc. And referrals to community resources (would have to include faith-based but be upfront about it) specializing in those areas.

Any ideas on that?

[Leigh131313]

No, i agree that an eparent should have their own representation - I'm not arguing that I actually think tho the BIGGER thing is the councelling and parentplanning type stuff....that should REALLY be away from the agency...

Now, I'm in canada so that's why I don't know alot about your system - heck i don't know a ton about my own!!!


In my sons adoption - the attorney did VERY little. We payed for it but we never even spoke to her - she was my sons birthmoms attorney. The attorney did not work for the agency. She went through the form with m's birthmom - the form is NOT complicated, very straightforward, made sure she was aware of what it meant, and was there for the signing.....that's about it.


So, while i think it's important that it be seperate.....I think I'd first focus on getting agencies away from the pre-match councelling and planning.....

it just seems like more damage is done there, kwim?

[SuddenlySusan]

Nice post, Hadley.

It totally makes sense for adoption agencies to solely represent paparents, for independent counseling agencies to provide counseling to emoms and pbparents, and for independent legal representation for emoms/pbparents.

I don't get what's so complicated about it. But, like I said, who wouldn't go into debt for legal fees if it meant the survival of a family unit, whether it be birth or adoptive family units. I don't see the difference. Does everyone still think that bparents are all poor and uneducated? I thought we moved beyond that, but apparently not. Again, just me...

Susan
mother-out-law
(bmom in reunion)

[SuddenlySusan]

Leigh, I'd agree that a huge portion of potential damage occurs on the counseling level. We're on the same page as far as that goes.

And as far as "sharing" an attorney... well, I found out the hard way in a divorce that allowing my now ex-husband to "share" my attorney (a male) was definitely not in my best interest.

An astute adoption attorney would be able to advise pbparents that certain states would not honor an open arrangement, and could advise the clients to have the adoption take place in states that do honor open arrangements. That would certainly help out the many bparents who find themselves closed out of the lives of their bchildren. Just more thoughts to add to the discussion...

Peace,
Susan

[Leigh131313]

See, that's one of the differences...I didn't have an attorney to adopt our son. Here, it is not necessary. However, the eparent needs an attorney to sign consents.


See, and thats another concern about mine when Hadley mentioned a court appointed atty.....would they really know what they are doing?? Not all attornies are created equal - that's for sure.


I honestly think the big thing standing in the way is funding.

[Hadley2]

I wonder, too, and this may be going too far, but just to explore it--

In foster cases in many states, a judge must approve a voluntary termination of parental rights/entrustment and can withhold approval. IDK what the standards are (but bet they vary by state)--if he/she must find that the termination is in the child's best interest to be able to approve it or if he/she must find that it is not in the child's best interest to disapprove it or if a judge can simply make a decision without justifying it either way.

In any case, what if something similar held true for all VTPR/entrustments? What if a judge had to be convinced that the pbparent was giving informed consent for the entrustment? Would it be a worthwhile and sound way of ferreting out unethical adoptions or would it simply jam up the works with expensive, time consuming, rubber stamp legal work?

[Leigh131313]

I think it would be a little redundant - if I'm understanding you correctly.


If at the lawyer level we could make sure it was only about the eparent and not the agency (or aparent) why the need for a judge?

kwim?

I'm pretty confident that the lawyer who represented T was thorough. I can only go by what T said, as we are not allowed in the room with the lawyer (which i completely agree with).

I really don't think that by the time of signing there is anything that desperately needs changing.

For me, it lies at the agency level. Get them out of the councelling game, and make them a strictly match-making service and things would sit much better with me.