[Janeytwo]

Hey All,

The other night I was surfing the cable channels and I happened upon one where this twenty-something guy was giving a speech to a large and apparently enthralled audience. (They kept clapping and whistling and yelling out their support). I thought, okay, let's see what this guy's talking about. See if there's something I can learn here.

He was a phenomenal speaker but all I can tell you after about two minutes of listening, was that I was stunned. I mean stunned by what he was saying.

Let me take a minute to say at the outset of my rant of a thread - that I don't have anything against the guy per-se. Matter of fact, he was a dynamic speaker and it's obvious he's an ambitious young man who's going places. More power to him on that score.

No. It wasn't so much the messenger as it is the message.

The scene was this. The guy's pacing across the stage, talking forcefully, while behind him an attractive college-aged blonde woman sits in a chair looking miserable, lost and forlorn. At first I thought maybe performance art (then again, maybe it is).

Anyway, the guys starts saying that if a woman's been raped, if she's been hurt like that, if a man's taken her dignity? All she has to do to take her power back, to erase it all is to say to herself and everyone else that it never happened, that's she's still a virgin.

!!!

There I was sitting on the edge of my bed, remote in hand, slack-jawed and wide-eyed going, " 'SCUSE ME?!! Run that by me again there bucko!"


.....If you just say you're a virgin, you can erase it all and make it go away.....

IMO - There's something truly sinister in that philosophy.


First of all - right from the start - the guy's jumping to the same conclusion so many do in thinking that rape is about sex. Well it's not. It's about power; or rather attacking someone in a most heinous fashion in order to take their personal power from them.

Then to intimate that denial is the answer?

Rape victims don't need a whitewash. They need a voice - a confident one - so they can stand up in a court of law, point to their attacker and say "That person over there hurt me in the most viscous way possible and I demand justice for myself!!!"

Rape victims need the power of vindication. The ability to testify on their behalf - not just to others but too themselves - that they have been legitimately wronged because they have been. They need to be heard so that they can heal. Not sent into the dismal light of deluded denial where they can be haunted by what happened to them while they pretend that it never did.

IMO - Telling a woman that if she simply says, "This never happened and I am still a virgin"......telling her that that statement will give her power over her attacker?

You might as well being saying to her, "Hey. You're the one who wore that low-cut dress. You deserved it!"

Do you understand where I'm coming from here people?


But wait...just like the ShamWow commercial...there's more!!

So, I'm still sitting there hang-dogged watching the blonde on the tv sit in her chair looking all ashmed of herself when I hear the guy say that if a woman's made the wrong choices, fallen in with the wrong man, made "mistakes" of a sexual nature? Well, boy howdy! She can take it all back, erase it all by saying she's still a virgin!!!


Say what?


So in other words, instead of stepping onto the bridge of adulthood where a person owns up to their own slips, all we have to do as women is pretend it never happened in the first place and that we're still pure as the driven snow?


(Knocking on the computer screen.....Hello! Can someone tell me if this is the 21st century or the 11th 'cuz I be confused!!)


This gentleman and his accolytes want women to lie and say we didn't screw up and that we're "still virgins"? Why? Is it because we're too feeble in their eyes to grow a set and admit too ourselves, "Man, I really messed up bad there! Hope I do better next time!"

Or are we simply helpless little dolls who need to be protected from our own humanity? Have our heads patted and sent off to the parlour to sip tea!

Give me a friggin break!!!

And where does that leave us birthmothers? I mean, let's face it, ain't one of us EVER going to able to claim virginity. Most other folk on the planet either truth be told - including the speaker and his followers.

Nope, nope, nope.


As for our young women; our beloved daughters, sisters, nieces, co-workers? Asking them to deny their pain or their history or their experiences in order to make them pristine?

Pushing our beloved daughters back into the terrible and defeaning silence where they can dwell in shame and fear?

Not on my watch young man!

Not on my watch!!!!

[Dickons]

And people were clapping and yelling?

Just pretend and it will be okay? Trauma does not go away if you bury your head in the sand, eventually you have to face reality and deal with the pain and then realize you have also lost too many years to the pain.

Wow Janey, sounds like the cold war era when all must pretend to be perfect nuclear family and skeletons are hid in the closet never to surface is really coming round again.

Sad, just sad...
Dickons

[JustPeachy]

Anyway, the guys starts saying that if a woman's been raped, if she's been hurt like that, if a man's taken her dignity? All she has to do to take her power back, to erase it all is to say to herself and everyone else that it never happened, that's she's still a virgin.

Ummm, yeah. And if he was ever raped and had someone forced on him and had to endure the shame, humiliation, violation, assault, etc., I'm so sure he'd just magically forget about it and act like it never happened. GMAB! That's called denial and delusion, not the makings of a mentally sound person.

I think this is the very worst advice anyone can give, and it is clear that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. And what if she is not a virgin when it happens?? Oh, wait, here it is...

So, I'm still sitting there hang-dogged watching the blonde on the tv sit in her chair looking all ashmed of herself when I hear the guy say that if a woman's made the wrong choices, fallen in with the wrong man, made "mistakes" of a sexual nature? Well, boy howdy! She can take it all back, erase it all by saying she's still a virgin!!!

What is up with this guy's fixation on virginity? And what about all the concern for guys who are no longer virgins?? Why isn't he trying to protect THEIR virginity??? Anyone who makes a woman feel ashamed for her sexuality has some serious issues, IMO. And if they are making women feel ashamed but not men, they are hypocrites, to boot.

I haven't pretended to be a virgin since I was a teenager and worried that if I said I already did it, the guy I was with would think I was too easy!! LOL!!!! (I didn't fool him, anyway). I'm certainly not going to feel ashamed and try to revirginize (is that a word?) myself after all these years!!

In my opinion the guy sounds like a total idiot. Not to mention dangerous to those who have been violated. He sounds like a charismatic leader, but there are all sorts of charismatic leaders who are/were menaces to society.

[dpen6]

WOW.....was it mostly men in the audience? I am thinking that men may be able to relate to rape a little better if they invision a huge gay man raping them.....I said that to one of my hubby's friends as he was trying to minimize the effect of rape on a woman and it stopped him cold...he said..I would never let that happen! Yeah right , if you have a gun to your head or they threaten to kill your kids what you you do...he didn't answer.

Disclaimer here...This example doe NOT Mean I think gay men rape..it means that the probabily may be the same in hetro as well as gay..it was just an example.

[-maggie]

Janey, Didn't you know that if you don't acknowledge a problem...... it doesn't exist?

(That's my mom's motto!!! )

I am speechless at a program like that. I just don't know what to say!!!

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by JustPeachy

Ummm, yeah. And if he was ever raped and had someone forced on him and had to endure the shame, humiliation, violation, assault, etc., I'm so sure he'd just magically forget about it and act like it never happened. GMAB! That's called denial and delusion, not the makings of a mentally sound person.

I think this is the very worst advice anyone can give, and it is clear that this guy doesn't know what he is talking about. And what if she is not a virgin when it happens?? Oh, wait, here it is...



What is up with this guy's fixation on virginity? And what about all the concern for guys who are no longer virgins?? Why isn't he trying to protect THEIR virginity??? Anyone who makes a woman feel ashamed for her sexuality has some serious issues, IMO. And if they are making women feel ashamed but not men, they are hypocrites, to boot.

I haven't pretended to be a virgin since I was a teenager and worried that if I said I already did it, the guy I was with would think I was too easy!! LOL!!!! (I didn't fool him, anyway). I'm certainly not going to feel ashamed and try to revirginize (is that a word?) myself after all these years!!

In my opinion the guy sounds like a total idiot. Not to mention dangerous to those who have been violated. He sounds like a charismatic leader, but there are all sorts of charismatic leaders who are/were menaces to society.

Peachy, sounds like we were thinking along thesame lines...I like the revirginize word.

The day woman take their power back is when men stop[ telling woman how it should be sexually.

The most charismatic peo9le WERE evil...HITLER

[BrandyHagz]

There really are two schools of thought, when it comes to rape situations. Believe it or not, what you talked about here isn’t anything new and it’s really pounded into the head of women who have been raped, sometimes as soon as hours after the perpetration by well-meaning professionals who truly believe that you can ‘put it behind you’ and ‘live like it never happened’.

I tried that. It didn’t work out so well. I mean, for a while, sure, I was able to ‘move on’ and ‘get on with my life like nothing happened’ – but then I got into a relationship with my husband and *bam* I wasn’t ‘ok’ any more.

For me, I wasn’t able to heal until I had faced the demons of the event, realized that I didn’t need to tell myself it never happened, but instead, admit that it happened, remind myself that it was nothing *I* had done wrong and then ultimately faced the anger, rage and pain that resulted from the original attack.

I call my coming to this realization my ‘secondary attack’ because not only did I have to deal with and cope with all the emotions all over again, I also had to get to a point where I no longer accepted the blame for what had happened to me – blame placed on me by being forced to denounce what had happened to me, like it had never happened, when the reality was, it had happened.

I think, like any number of circumstances (adoption included) you can ‘move on’ but you can only ‘move on’ for so long. You do, eventually, have to face the situation and deal with whatever emotions you’re feeling. At least, most people do.

In rape situations, this is an especially damaging mantra – because if you’re being told these things, it means you’re not talking to police. It means your rapist is getting off free and clear. It means no one pays for doing what they did to you. It also means that he is free to do it again – and as long as women are being told to stay silent and act like it never happened, rapist will walk our streets and rape our daughters.

This is an especially emotional topic for me, because I bought into the “it never happened, I’m ok” mantra that the police counselor sold me and in the end, my perpetrator walked free and now I live every day with the knowledge that had I had the strength and support to go against what I was being told, he wouldn’t have gone on to rape at least three more girls (and they were girls, children) – and the countless unknown girls/women he was never caught hurting – because they too got the same talk I did.

[Amandak249]

Was it by any chance religiously motivated?


I'm a devout Catholic- I want to begin by saying that because I KNOW someone will just take this and run otherwise- but I've seen something like this before- and it's one of those deals where if you ask Jesus to restore your virginity, it's like the rape never happened and you are taking the power away from the rapist because it's like his "deed has been undone."


Not that my angle is any less ridiculous, IMO, but I'm curious. The scenario with the people clapping, whooping,etc- reminds me of some of the inspirational speakers...

[MamaS]

Well, "thinking yourself back into virginity" is a lot easier than the "hymen repair" recommended by some. It is used not only for rape victims but for young girls who were too athletic (horseback riding, cheerleading, etc.). The purpose is to surgically "rebuild" a hymen so on your wedding night your husband will have "proof" of your virginity.

[Janeytwo]

Hey All!

Reminder to self: Sitting down on a vinyl office chair after exercising tends to make one stick to the seat! Ick!! Good grief!!


Dickons

Just pretend and it will be okay? ......sounds like the cold war era when all must pretend to be perfect nuclear family and skeletons are hid in the closet......Sad, just sad...

You got that right my friend!! Maybe back then people could claim to be naive but in this day and age with all we've learned about ourselves? IMO - by now you'd think people would've learned that those skeletons couldn't stay in the closet if you chained them in there. I have to wonder about people who would like to go back to the "good old days"...I have to wonder what it is they're hiding, ya know?


JustPeachy

And what about all the concern for guys who are no longer virgins?? Why isn't he trying to protect THEIR virginity???

Excellent point!! It's strange how people tend to forget that men can be victims too

I haven't pretended to be a virgin since I was a teenager and worried that if I said I already did it, the guy I was with would think I was too easy!! LOL!!!! (I didn't fool him, anyway).

Great minds think alike! I had actually been thinking that very thing as I was watching the speech.

This is rediculous on so many levels really isn't it? Lie and be respectable again. Okay but what about my self-respect? What about my ability to look myself in the face in the mirror every morning? What about that?


Dpen6

I am thinking that men may be able to relate to rape a little better if they invision a huge gay man raping them.....I said that to one of my hubby's friends as he was trying to minimize the effect of rape on a woman and it stopped him cold.

The audience appeared to be mixed in age and sex (in answer to your question).

But - IMO - this is a valid point here. Some people do see rape differently; see it as a crime of passion instead of what it is. A violent act - period, end of sentence.

I'm no expert but I'm fairly certain that no one is going to say to a mugging victim who's just been beaten half to death, "Take back your power! Say it never happened!"

If anyone said that to them their attorney would be screaming, LAW SUIT, from the highest belltower. And rightly so.


MamaS

The purpose is to surgically "rebuild" a hymen so on your wedding night your husband will have "proof" of your virginity.

I don't know what else to say but...Ugh!!! A man who would request that of his fiance? I'd be like "right after you surgically rebuild your lack of self-esteem there buddy"!!


Amanda It may have been a religious show. I'm not sure but that could be. In a way though that would be the worst place to air something like that. Because it seems to me (my opinion only) that perpetrating lies against ourselves would be the last thing God would want us to do. I would think He would want us to live in the light of self acceptance.


Maggie Thanks for posting bud!

[Janeytwo]

Brandy

Hope you don't mind me giving you your own frame here but you said a lot and all of it was valuable so I thought I'd respond separate.

Believe it or not, what you talked about here isn’t anything new and it’s really pounded into the head of women who have been raped

Sigh...Brandy. It is a sad thing to admit that while I was in the basement, I had my head so far into the sand I should've grown ostrich feathers!! I truly had no idea that this kind of thing was going on!! It seems I have been asleep at the wheel my friend. All apologies to my sisters in this world.

For me, I wasn’t able to heal until I had faced the demons of the event, realized that I didn’t need to tell myself it never happened, but instead, admit that it happened, remind myself that it was nothing *I* had done wrong and then ultimately faced the anger, rage and pain that resulted from the original attack.

That old saying, "the past is the past". How untrue! The past is never over until we acknowledge it. Until then, it hangs around in the background, picking at our psyches, causing fear and anger to roil up over the stupidest of things and there we are saying, "What is my friggin problem? Why am I acting like this?" And all the while - somewhere inside - we know why but we just can't go there. Because we've been told to "forget and go on". That that is the course of the brave and the strong and the survivors.

IMO - no one survives really until they've seen where they've been. Not just intellectually but emotionally as well.

Until then, the past keeps nattering away at us. Sort of like that old joke about being pecked to death by chickens; only chickens with hatchets for beaks.

I also had to get to a point where I no longer accepted the blame for what had happened to me

((( Brandy ))) A hard road that road. Kudos to you for your courage in taking it.

now I live every day with the knowledge that had I had the strength and support to go against what I was being told, he wouldn’t have gone on to rape at least three more girls (and they were girls, children) – and the countless unknown girls/women he was never caught hurting – because they too got the same talk I did

And so - to me at least - it is like you were victimized again. And it is like I said, no one says to victims of muggings or attempted murder - anything like that - just go on and forget - take your power back too yourself through denial.

I am so very sorry that you had to witness this personally in your own life; that any woman/girl/person has to witness it.

And this line of "take back your virginity by denying this ever happened"?

You are right. It serves no one any good purpose but the perpetrators and the liars out there. For the rest of us? It's just another nail in the coffin of denial and shame.

Thanks for sharing!! I know it can't be easy to do so, even after healing from it all.

[-maggie]

A little story to share with you Janey... hope that's ok

I had been dating a boy for a short while at the time I was raped. He was the only one I was able to tell what had happened. At the time that I told him he was pretty mad about it all and after a few days he calmed down and this is what he said to me....

"Since you didn't want it, it doesn't count."

He convinced himself that technically I was still a virgin since it wasn't my choice. He really wasn't concerned for what I had gone through, his anger was because I was no longer a virgin.

Needless to say it didn't work out with him.

I have never understood the hang up on virginity. Why is it so important to men? Why is it so important to the church? Why is it so important to parents? Any thoughts?

[RavenSong]

I've always advocated empowerment and taking back control for rape survivors. But I have to tell you...this guy sucks. His advice is ludicrous, and I'm speaking as someone who worked for many years as an outreach worker and counselor for a Rape Crisis Center in a major metropolitan area. (I've also been raped twice in my life -- the first time was especially brutal and almost cost me my life.)

Rape is a power trip, plain and simple...it has nothing to do with sex. Women do not "ask" to be raped. No man has the right to force himself upon a woman...I don't care if a woman is drunk and wandering around the streets at 3 in the morning. She has the right to not be assaulted and violated. Unless and until all women start teaching their sons to respect women and not view them as property or as inferior to men, rape will continue to be perpetrated every day, every hour, every minute in this country.

It's recently come to my attention that many rape survivors are not aware of the free counseling offered by rape crisis centers. If you or anyone you know has been raped, even if it was many years ago, please contact your local rape crisis center. They really can help, I promise. Most cities and towns have a rape crisis center. (Even the little town down the road from me, which only has 5,000 residents, has a rape crisis center.) All hospitals have the phone number, as do police departments -- it should also be listed in your local phone directory. Most centers offer individual counseling, group therapy, support groups, and advocacy services that are available 24/7.

[JustPeachy]

RAINN (Rape and Incest National Network--rainn.org); is also a wonderful resource that won't advocate for women to pretend it never happened in order to be a born-again virgin or whatever....

[Janeytwo]

Hey All!


Maggie

"Since you didn't want it, it doesn't count." He really wasn't concerned for what I had gone through, his anger was because I was no longer a virgin.

((( Maggie ))) What a heartbreaking thing to have someone say to you.

And see this is my point. Telling rape victims that it doesn't matter, that they can be virgins if they simply forget; that's just another violation against them IMO.

I have never understood the hang up on virginity. Why is it so important to men? Why is it so important to the church? Why is it so important to parents? Any thoughts?

I've never really understood the hang up on virginity either. I would've thought we would've been moving past all that by now.

The old double standard in play.

I remember reading an interview in a national news magazine once. The interview was with a certain adult magazine proprietor. He was talking about his success in the business world and also about his daughter being made president of his magazine. He was all proud about that. The reporter asked him a question about when his daughter would be appearing in the magazine (as an exhibit) he said "never".

I've always found it veerrrryyy interesting that he had no problem making his daughter a big shot in his organization but he refused to let her pose nude in his publication. So apparently it was okay for him to exploit everyone else's daughters but it wasn't okay for his daughter to be exploited.

He actually had the audacity to go on and laud himself as a champion of women's equality because he made his daughter a CEO.

I remember reading the article and thinking that I had more respect for his competitor. I mean, sure, that guy was skeezy but at least he had the nads to admit his skeeziness.


Raven

Unless and until all women start teaching their sons to respect women....rape will continue to be perpetrated every day, every hour, every minute....

IMO. I think I would extropolate and say that parents (both moms and dads) need to teach their children that rape is a heinous crime against humanity in general.

If we can somehow take the focus off of women and make it about the crime itself, perhaps that will change how it's viewed?

I mean, of course, it's mostly perpetrated against women and I don't mean to minimize that fact. Not at all.

But there's that little difference that maybe shouldn't be there.

Uhmmm....I'm not saying this right.

Let me see.....like that girl I knew who was attacked in her driveway.

Everyone kept saying, "Did you hear? She was raped." And everyone's like OMG!!! (rightly so of course).

But nobody focused on the fact that the guy slammed her head into a brick wall so hard that he broke her face. Nobody focused on the fact that basically he left her for dead on a freezing driveway.

That's what? At least two other crimes. Assault with intent to bodily harm and attempted murder. But everyone focused on what else he did which only added to her anguish.

It should've been outrage and cries of justice not just for his personal attack on her but also for everything else.

I've never understood why people saw it differently. Because in seeing it differently, that - in my eyes - was them making it about her instead of about him.

That probably made no sense at all did it?