[Rylee45]

I'm just wondering something. I don't know how it actually is these days or how much TV stuff is true but I was curious about something to do with birth dad's rights to raise their own child if the mom chooses not to keep her baby.

The question: If a girl decides she isn't going to keep her baby and goes through all the process of choosing the "new family" and suddenly (or for the entire time for that matter) the birth dad comes in and says, "If you don't want the baby I want to raise it." why can't he have the baby to raise without going through all the crap of "proving" he's a "good father"?

I've heard so many many many stories about how the birth mom wanted the adoption and she was making all the choices etc and when the birth dad DARED to come to try to take HIS child and stop the adoption, he was put under a microscope and has to go through so much crap to get to keep his own child just to usually get told by a judge that they aren't fit enough and the adoptive parents get the child anyway.

For some reason, even though I have a LOT of resentments for birth fathers who run out on the girl or claim it's not theirs or whatever else that forses a girl to give her baby away, I just don't understand HOW a birth dad's rights to keep his own child don't matter but the birth mom's do. IF she decides to keep the baby she doesn't have to prove she's fit to do that. She just has to say, "Sorry I changed my mind I'm keeping my baby." and then go on about life and that's the end of it. (unless of course the adoptive parents decide to cause trouble and sue her and then claim she was unfit ect like one story I heard on here awhile ago, then it is still going on for the mom).

I haven't heard many adoptive parents caring about what the birth dad feels or his right to keep the baby if the girl doesn't want it. Usually there's a huge fight and the birth dad has to fight for every ounce of his rights to be that child's father and raise it and still gets shafted in the long run.

Why is it that way with birth dads? OR am I way off in this?

Rylee

[dpen6]

I think its because the ones that do run out on the expecatant mom, the ones that do claim"hey it aint mine..she's a whore", ruin it for theones that are resposible and good people. It is still very common for the general population that males don't NEED to be there...hey don't want to rope the poor guy in..... After we SHE is nothing but a b****

Once males started telling other males that its unacceptable the rest of society may give the guy more ofachance...when the jokes and rib poking between the guys stop and they are called the scum they are then things may change but until then they are their own worst enemy's.

Yup its horribly wrong but it is the way itis. When it changes then WE as woman have a better chance of dealing with the sammers and dishonest woman....

[SallieM]

I don't know how it is anywhere else, but where I live (California) it isn't the way you describe at all. I had picked out a wonderful family for my baby and we were to have an open adoption. When I told the birthfather (he had stopped contacting me after I told him of the pregnancy, so I thought he would be happy with adoption), he took a fit and said he wanted to raise the child. He is, in my opinion, not fit to be a parent. Nor do I think he really would parent. He would lose interest after a few months (as he has done with everything else in his life) and dump the baby back on me to raise with him popping in from time to time to play "daddy".

I consulted an attorney and was told that I would have to PROVE that he was unfit. Moreover, I was told that all the things that I thought made him unfit (inability to hold job, frequently no place to live, party lifestyle) would not be seen as unfit in the eyes of the law. My only choice was to hand my child over to him or raise the child myself (with him getting visitation or possibly even joint custody).

I don't think any responsible mother would want this man raising their child and I wasn't prepared to raise him myself, so I did the only thing I could think to do. I fled the state before the baby was born, gave birth in another state (just last week), and abandoned my son anonymously under the safehaven laws of that state. I was assured by my attorney that once parental rights were terminated (in about 30 days) there would be no way the father could get the baby back even if he were to discover where the child is (little chance of that).

I wish things were as you described. Then my baby could have been raised by the family that I picked for him and I would have been able to watch him grow up. As it is now, social services will decide who raises my son and, unless I search for him (or he me) when he is an adult, I will never know him.

[paigeturner]

Rylee,

As I’ve thought, long and hard, about what adoption reforms should look like over the years, I’ve thought a lot about the right of the father to parent his child I he so wishes. I think as a society because of the men who do not live up to their parental responsibilities they have all been lumped in together and as a result society throws roadblocks in the way of those men who do wish to step up to the plate and parent their child.

If you take a look at NCFA’s website, in particular their public policy agenda, you’ll see getting the biological father out of the way is a huge undertaking for them. They are in favor of Putative Father registries, which are a joke, and expansions of Safe Haven laws (I’ll get to your post in a minute, SallieM) and for the most part, lawmakers give assent. I like to ask myself, Why? Instead of infant adoption being a last, well thought out, counseled resort, with adoptive parents being found for a child it’s become the flip side of that…big business, with adoptive parents shelling out thousands for healthy infants. Acknowledging father’s rights gets right in the way of the flow of money.

At the end of the day, it is the adoptee, in my opinion, that is left not knowing some or all of their heritage, medical background and biological family.

Fathers are being treated much the way women were during the dark years of the baby scoop era. Until society recognizes all parties rights to parent or relinquish, real reforms can never happen.

SallieM – I’m going to try to be gentle as apparently you’ve recently just given birth and abandoned your child and you must be intensely grieving, but I believe what you did is a mockery of the reasons that Safe Haven was put into place. Acts like yours will be the reasons that these laws are reversed. If a man decided he didn’t want his female partner to parent behaved in the way that you did, he’d go to prison. Uggg. I just deleted the rest of what I think, because I remembered I was going to be gentle.

[Janeytwo]

Sallie M - I'm backing Paige on this. Safehaven Laws were not created so that unscrupulous attorneys (which is almost an oxymoron in and of itself) could give their clients advice on how to run from birthfathers.

If the shoe were on the other foot, people would be up in arms.

Birthfathers have rights and just because they are male doesn't negate those rights.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by paigeturner

SallieM – I’m going to try to be gentle as apparently you’ve recently just given birth and abandoned your child and you must be intensely grieving, but I believe what you did is a mockery of the reasons that Safe Haven was put into place. Acts like yours will be the reasons that these laws are reversed. If a man decided he didn’t want his female partner to parent behaved in the way that you did, he’d go to prison.

I wholeheartedly agree with Paige on this one. I was not aware of how the Safe Haven laws are being abused in this country until very recently, specifically when SallieM, while still pregnant, posted her intent to use Safe Haven to avoid the whole issue of paternal rights. If this is happening on a routine basis, I imagine the Safe Haven laws will be thrown out when the public discovers how they're being abused.

Rylee, when I found out that California changed its laws in 1980 to require the father's signature on relinquishment forms, I was taken aback. At first I didn't agree with the reforms...but I've changed my mind in the ensuing years. I came very close to losing my nephew to adoption 20 years ago. My ex-SIL threatened my brother with relinquishing their baby if he didn't marry her. I remember the panic I felt, knowing that our family could once again lose a child forever. Fortunately, my brother did the right thing and married his child's mother.

Looking back at myself being a pregnant teenager, I wish now that Mike had had the same legal rights in California that guys have here now. He was an awesome father to his subsequent children, and I'm sure he would have been an amazing father to his firstborn son.

[browneyes0707]

I think they fall under scrutiny because of their role in society. The general "consensus" when an unwed woman presents herself alone as someone who wants to place is that the birthfather skipped out. So when he comes back suddenly saying "Hey, I changed my mind!" it's assumed that because they did not assume immediate responsibility, then he is irresponsible. I also think that because men are supposed to be providers, there is more of an expectation that they have a stable job, home, etc. Women can get "public assistance". However, I think people forget that it's an equal situation. Women can be in denial about their pregnancy for months, even the entire time, and not act responsibly, but no one asks if they are fit. And a man acting as a single father can get public assistance to help him raise a child, but it does seem that society doesn't want to give him a chance. Does that make sense?

I often wonder what it would have happened if my DD's b-dad stepped up and announced he would parent. He was immature and irresponsible at 18, he fled for a few months, denied paternity, etc. I'm not condoning his actions, but I know he was just terrified and in denial. I made my choice to relinquish based on his behavior, I just could not put a child through the same kind of rejection I had to deal with. But he came around, and I told him, (yes, because I was told that I had no choice, something that scared me more than anything) and he had the opportunity to express his opinions freely. Had he decided to parent, I would have stood by his decision and helped him raise DD. He's not my best friend by a long shot, but he has a great job and raises his stepchild as his own and I know he would have been a great father had he expressed that he wanted the chance. However, I don't think when he was 18 anyone would have thought that or had faith in that, least of all me.

But I am so grateful that they made me tell him, because at least I KNOW he had that chance to parent, and my DD has the chance to know her complete family history.

[SallieM]

To those of you who disagree with what I did, I understand your feelings. I struggled with how wrong it seemed myself, but I didn't feel I had any other choice. I would have loved nothing more than to be able to parent my baby myself. Or if not me, I would have loved for the father to parent with me maintaining contact. However, I am not prepared (yet) to be a parent and the birth father is way less prepared than me (read my prior posts to find out why). The difference is, I'm mature enough to admit it, he isn't.

Would any of you hand your baby over to an unfit parent? I have read posts on these boards where fosterparents have been in tears and ready to fight at great emotional and financial expense to prevent their foster children from going back to unfit parents. Would any of them not take any LEGAL means necessary to protect their children?

Yes, what I did seems wrong (to me too), but it was the only way I could see to protect my son's right to a good home and a happy childhood. And in the end, his rights are so much more important than mine or the birth fathers.

[Dickons]

SallieM,

I always try to see the other side...and then the combination of both sides - the middle ground...sorry...just cannot reconcile what I have just read that was done to an innocent child, with anything remotely in the best interests of the child, more what appears to have been in your best interests.

Regards,
Dickons

[SallieM]

Dickons,

I can see how you would feel that way being that you do not know the man that fathered my child. You do not know that he has never kept a job for more than a few weeks. You do not know that he currently lives with 4 roommates and the 5 of them "party" and get drunk practically every night of the week. You do not know that he frequently has nothing but a friend's couch to call home. You do not know that he has quit every worthwhile endeavor he has ever started (high school, vocational school, many jobs, etc.) and would likely quit being "daddy" once he discovered that it actually took hard work and responsibility. I can see how you would feel this way being that you do not know these things. But I do know them. And as a mother, I could not and would not, hand my baby over to that lifestyle.

As for being in my best interest, do you really think I wanted to hand my baby over never to be seen again? No, I wanted an open adoption where both I and the father could have contact and watch our child grow up.

Do you really think that I wanted social services to be in charge of picking parents for my baby? No, that's why I spent weeks going through parent profiles to choose the perfect family myself. Those were the parents I wanted raising my baby, but to have them, I had to have the father's signature.

I trust that social services will pick a loving and caring family for my baby with parents who are READY to be parents. That's more than either I or the father could offer. I think that is in my son's best interests.

I read many of your other posts. I know how you feel about adopted children not knowing their birth family. I agree with you, it's not ideal, but sometimes it is better than the alternative.

[paigeturner]

So let me ask you Sallie, if the situation was reversed and a woman gave birth and wanted to parent, but her male partner didn’t think she was fit and did not want his child to be raised the way she would raise him, would you support his right to flee across state lines with his child and dump him anonymously at a safe haven location?

I just don’t believe there wasn’t a better alternative. But, I guess in the end, you showed him. Unfortunately a child will have to grow up with the stigma of being dumped and wondering if the safe haven was an alternative to a dumpster.

I just can’t understand and will work hard, if the opportunity arises in my state to see safe haven laws clarified to make it a crime to use safe havens as a way to circumvent the rights of either parent.

[thanksgivingmom]

As someone that USED safe haven, I too worry about the long term implications of this sort of misuse.

But I think one of the most crucial arguments is this:

So let me ask you Sallie, if the situation was reversed and a woman gave birth and wanted to parent, but her male partner didn’t think she was fit and did not want his child to be raised the way she would raise him, would you support his right to flee across state lines with his child and dump him anonymously at a safe haven location?

I did abandon my daughter using Safe Haven. And two days later I realized this was not how it should be. I returned to that hospital, I got in contact with her Mom, and we're now in an open adoption. I went through hell and high water to make right what I had done - and despite the struggles we may have with open adoption - it was worth it.

I know how you feel about adopted children not knowing their birth family. I agree with you, it's not ideal, but sometimes it is better than the alternative.

Once upon a time I believed things like this....I really did. I'm not saying this to belittle how you feel today - just to let you know that I truly believed Cupcake would be okay (heck, BETTER off) not knowing who I was, who bdad is, etc. It took me a lot of time, a lot of soul searching, and a lot of time spent speaking with other adoptees for me to really understand my worth in her life. Even if I'm not perfect, or if her bdad isn't perfect, that doesn't matter. We're her biological family - and that importance doesn't change because of lifestyle, living conditions, or educational acheivements.

I hope for you, for the childs father, and for your son, that you're able to connect again someday.

[SallieM]

I support any legal means necessary to protect a child from an unsafe/unfit situation. That, I believe, is a parent's primary responsibility whether they are the mother or father.

Unfortunately, my attorney disagreed with you that there wasn't a better alternative. It was either I raise the baby or hand him over to the father. As I've already stated, I am nowhere near ready to care for a child and the father is so far less ready than me that it's not even worth discussing.

As for the stigma, I did follow the advice I received in a private message and left a note (to be given to the child when he is older) that explains how much I loved him and why I left him. My only hope is that his adoptive parents will give it to him and that he will understand.

Abandoning a baby is not easy. It is the hardest thing I've ever done. I can't believe there is a mother out there who would use Safe Haven for the purpose of circumventing the father's rights unless she had good reason. But sometimes you have to be close to the situation to see that.

[browneyes0707]

Being that I have been in this position I can say that I do see the fact that you have to make decisions without the luxury of a crystal ball to see the future. I was faced with a non committal, irresponsible immature 18 going on 19 father in my situation too, and I made my decision accordingly. However, I did not have a father who stepped up and said "I want to try to parent" either. And I don't know too many kids in their late teens who do have their stuff together enough to parent, but you know, a lot of them get it together and do. While I can't play what if and all that, and there is a chance that had we parented he could have walked away when things got tough, there's no law that says you have to place at birth. But what would have happened would have surprised me. Because I never would have believed that in just 3 short years, my DD's dad would have been a college graduate and starting a sucessful career. Never would have imagined that in his mid 30's he'd have a PhD, a marriage and a family. Or that he would have felt a lifetime of guilt that he wasn't there for me, or that he didn't try to parent. But at the end of the day he CHOSE not to parent. I did not take that right away from him.

Had I been in your position, I would have given him a shot. And if he walked away? Well, all the easier to get him to sign away his rights, because now you had a case that he would be an unfit father. But all you have now is a speculation that he MIGHT have done that. You don't KNOW, and you'll never know. Everyone deserves a chance, and it wasn't up to you to take it away from him. I know that's harsh, but what always made me feel a little better is that I can sleep at night knowing I behaved ethically and above board. My DD knows who we are, knows how to find us, and if she chooses to have a relationship with me, I can look her in the eye and be able to tell her that with a clear conscience that her birthfather and I made our choice without deception and without our personal opinions clouding our judgement.

I'm not a big safe haven fan, but I suppose in certain circumstances, it has it's use. (that's a whole other thread entirely ) To circumvent the rights of biological parents is certainly not one of them.

[SallieM]

Originally Posted by thanksgivingmom

Once upon a time I believed things like this....I really did. I'm not saying this to belittle how you feel today - just to let you know that I truly believed Cupcake would be okay (heck, BETTER off) not knowing who I was, who bdad is, etc. It took me a lot of time, a lot of soul searching, and a lot of time spent speaking with other adoptees for me to really understand my worth in her life. Even if I'm not perfect, or if her bdad isn't perfect, that doesn't matter. We're her biological family - and that importance doesn't change because of lifestyle, living conditions, or educational acheivements.

I hope for you, for the childs father, and for your son, that you're able to connect again someday.

I have read your other posts and your blog entries and I want you to know that I have the deepest respect for what you did and how hard you have worked to maintain contact with your daughter.

I too believe that my son would be better off knowing both me and his father. That was my original plan when I choose an open adoption. But he would NOT be better off being raised by either one of us. With me it is a financial thing. I am just not financially in a place where I can provide for a child. With his father, it is so much more. He just has not grown up yet and figured out how to live as a responsible adult. To put a child in his custody would be just plain irresponsible.

I desperately hope that someday I will be able regain contact with my son. I hope his father will too.