[Whirled_Peas]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

You know, the weird part about what my situation was with the birthfather signature was the agency put an ad in a paper that was only for legal people. Burried somewhere that unless you had a reason to look and knew a particular date would never even be thought about. It was in the King County legal paper at that. I lived in the Pierce county area at the time but the baby was born in King county.

Our state has a putative father's registry. If he does not record there, and the mother states the father is unknown, then a father search must be done. It is still as described as above. Once a week for 4 weeks an ad is placed in the legal section of a paper. It doesn't have to be in the same city as the mother resides in, only the same county.

Our attorney said that in 20 or so years of doing this, he's only had 2 fathers come forward. Both were 30 or 40 and both consented to the adoption.

Another attorney, also practicing for about 20 years, said he only once got a call regarding a dad ad. It was the paternal grandmother calling to say she was glad someone other than her son would be raising the baby.

[dpen6]

Whirled peas

We aretalking about a general sense of what happeded to us and to many bmoms and adoptees in the closed era and today. I was also talking about how the afamilies are being played upon also.
I personally was NOT downing afamilies at all..I personally wasspeaking about how it is for MANYadoptees today. T

You talk abouty how to help the baby deal with issues...I am far from a baby and can speak about adoption from an adoptee...ADULT perspective...I have lived, i Have seen and I do have an opinion that is just as important as anyone elses. AND if I do state my opinion I am not usually DOWNING anytone..either my afamily or my bfamily....see I see both sides..because i WAS the adoption.

[Rylee45]

I wasn't "downing" anyone either EXCEPT the adoption agencies. They are liars and they don't tell everyone the truth because IF they did, there would probably be less adoptions happening and they wouldn't get all the money they do.

Adoptive parents may get told the things about how the girl may feel. Or how the child may feel. But they aren't there when the girl is being told what she's being told to get her to give her baby up.

Unless the child would live in danger, the mother is mentally incapacitated and wouldn't be able to ever take care of the baby, or a number other of reasons, that are not temporary reasons the child shouldn't reside with the mother, how could giving it away be "good" for the child or the mother?

Just because there are two parents at the time of the adoption doesn't mean they couldn't get divorced someday and cause that child to be in a "single parent home eventually. And what about if the adoptive family loses their income, or can't feed their child anymore without going to the welfare or food banks or things like that? Isn't that the reasons a lot of girls (not all of them just a lot) give their child up, because they can't afford to raise them at the time, or they are alone, or they can't give them everything they want? Those are temporary situations for most. Not permanant.

The agencies encourage a child to be raised in a two parent household. They tell the girl all kinds of other things in "kind ways" that make it appear to be "their choice" when in actuality the girl is made to believe she can't do as good a job as an adoptive parent can and will never make a good life for her child if she keeps it.

I know there are a lot of girls/women who give their baby up for other reasons and do feel it's best and those are their choices and they haven't been cooerced in any way but I don't believe that's the majority who do that. I think the majority do it because they feel hopeless that their situation would ever change or they've been convinced if they love their baby enough they'll give it to someone else to raise merely because they are single. You don't see many (but you do see it obviously) married couples just deciding they don't want the baby and give it up for adoption. You don't see people coming and saying to married couples they aren't good enough (even if they are TEMPORARILY just as destitute due to a job loss or financial difficulties as a single girl may be) to raise their child. You don't see adoption agencies talking to too many married people for their babies.

Agencies are sneaky. I don't care how good they are. They know that when there is a girl unwed and pregnant the pretty much the first thing that is thought about is adoption or abortion and the agencies count on that. They don't try to talk her out of it or try to give her help in finding a way to keep her baby or help her get set up in a situation she could raise her own baby.

I asked the agency that handled my adoption why they never told me about other options to being able to keep my baby. I was told, "That's not our job. If you wanted to keep your baby you could have found a way. You came to us. We didn't go to you..." Yes we went to them but they were the only "choice" we were given to helping me with my "problem" (their word not mine).

That is STILL their opinion. They still have things sitting in their waiting area that talk about the reasons a girl should give their baby up. Why parents shouldn't help raise the baby because it stops the girl from progressing and growing in her life.

Whether anyone wants to accept that agencies are unscrupulous and willing to do and say whatever they can to convince an unmarried woman having a baby that she isn't good enough to raise her own child or not, the fact remains, agencies are not out there to do anything but get babies so they can make money.

If they actually helped direct the girls to places and ways of keeping their baby and raising it right do you honestly think they'd stay in business? And it IS a business.

If the agencies were doing it for free and actually trying to help the girls and when there really was NO OTHER option, THEN helping them with an adoption, then I would have to step back and say maybe they are in it for help. But that isn't the case. All the thousands upon thousands of dollars they get for ONE baby placed in a family, think about the THOUSANDS of babies they get money for. Adoption agencies are a multi-million maybe even multi- BILLION dollar business. It's pathetic.

But this is no reflection on the adoptive parents. Since being in this group I've learned not all adoptive parents are worthless like my daughter's parents are. I know there are a lot of good people out there. I'm not cutting them down. I'm not ridiculing or down grading ANYONE in the triad. I just know that the agencies are liars and they are only in the business to make money and they do it by deceit whether it's to the girl or the adoptive parents they lie to someone. They've just been able to camoflage what they're doing to sound better and less like they are "brainwashing" anyone.

Rylee

[Whirled_Peas]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

I wasn't "downing" anyone either EXCEPT the adoption agencies. They are liars and they don't tell everyone the truth because IF they did, there would probably be less adoptions happening and they wouldn't get all the money they do.

Adoptive parents may get told the things about how the girl may feel. Or how the child may feel. But they aren't there when the girl is being told what she's being told to get her to give her baby up.

Unless the child would live in danger, the mother is mentally incapacitated and wouldn't be able to ever take care of the baby, or a number other of reasons, that are not temporary reasons the child shouldn't reside with the mother, how could giving it away be "good" for the child or the mother?

Just because there are two parents at the time of the adoption doesn't mean they couldn't get divorced someday and cause that child to be in a "single parent home eventually. And what about if the adoptive family loses their income, or can't feed their child anymore without going to the welfare or food banks or things like that? Isn't that the reasons a lot of girls (not all of them just a lot) give their child up, because they can't afford to raise them at the time, or they are alone, or they can't give them everything they want? Those are temporary situations for most. Not permanant.

The agencies encourage a child to be raised in a two parent household. They tell the girl all kinds of other things in "kind ways" that make it appear to be "their choice" when in actuality the girl is made to believe she can't do as good a job as an adoptive parent can and will never make a good life for her child if she keeps it.

I know there are a lot of girls/women who give their baby up for other reasons and do feel it's best and those are their choices and they haven't been cooerced in any way but I don't believe that's the majority who do that. I think the majority do it because they feel hopeless that their situation would ever change or they've been convinced if they love their baby enough they'll give it to someone else to raise merely because they are single. You don't see many (but you do see it obviously) married couples just deciding they don't want the baby and give it up for adoption. You don't see people coming and saying to married couples they aren't good enough (even if they are TEMPORARILY just as destitute due to a job loss or financial difficulties as a single girl may be) to raise their child. You don't see adoption agencies talking to too many married people for their babies.

Agencies are sneaky. I don't care how good they are. They know that when there is a girl unwed and pregnant the pretty much the first thing that is thought about is adoption or abortion and the agencies count on that. They don't try to talk her out of it or try to give her help in finding a way to keep her baby or help her get set up in a situation she could raise her own baby.

I asked the agency that handled my adoption why they never told me about other options to being able to keep my baby. I was told, "That's not our job. If you wanted to keep your baby you could have found a way. You came to us. We didn't go to you..." Yes we went to them but they were the only "choice" we were given to helping me with my "problem" (their word not mine).

That is STILL their opinion. They still have things sitting in their waiting area that talk about the reasons a girl should give their baby up. Why parents shouldn't help raise the baby because it stops the girl from progressing and growing in her life.

Whether anyone wants to accept that agencies are unscrupulous and willing to do and say whatever they can to convince an unmarried woman having a baby that she isn't good enough to raise her own child or not, the fact remains, agencies are not out there to do anything but get babies so they can make money.

If they actually helped direct the girls to places and ways of keeping their baby and raising it right do you honestly think they'd stay in business? And it IS a business.

If the agencies were doing it for free and actually trying to help the girls and when there really was NO OTHER option, THEN helping them with an adoption, then I would have to step back and say maybe they are in it for help. But that isn't the case. All the thousands upon thousands of dollars they get for ONE baby placed in a family, think about the THOUSANDS of babies they get money for. Adoption agencies are a multi-million maybe even multi- BILLION dollar business. It's pathetic.

But this is no reflection on the adoptive parents. Since being in this group I've learned not all adoptive parents are worthless like my daughter's parents are. I know there are a lot of good people out there. I'm not cutting them down. I'm not ridiculing or down grading ANYONE in the triad. I just know that the agencies are liars and they are only in the business to make money and they do it by deceit whether it's to the girl or the adoptive parents they lie to someone. They've just been able to camoflage what they're doing to sound better and less like they are "brainwashing" anyone.

Rylee

I know these type of agencies exist, but this was not my experience. We adopted without an agency, but I did talk with people at two agencies. Both counseled pregnant women about all their options. Both had more moms choose to parent than to place. The one had about 300 women come to them for assistance each year with only about 50 to 75 choosing to place. That says, to me, that these agencies are doing it right. They are helping the moms get the support they need to make the choices that they feel are truly best.

The one agency we spoke with charged on a sliding scale fee. It was going to cost us $10,000. The other charges $25,000. That's a lot of money. But when you consider how many moms receive assistance that don't place, you figure they have to get the money somewhere. Ultimately, the adoptive parents are paying for the counseling of all those pregnant moms--the majority of the moms--that are keeping their babies.

We didn't use the cheaper agency for different reasons. The more expensive agency we just could not afford. However, given that my money would have gone to help a bunch of women during hard times, I would have been okay with the costs, if we could have afforded it.

[Rylee45]

I'm glad that you had a good experience with adoption.

As far as the stitistics go, an agency can tell you anything they think you want to hear. I doubt they'd give anyone accurate numbers. They know a person isn't going to go talk to all those they say chose not to place because of counseling they say they gave them.

I do know that more girls are keeping their babies these days than in days gone by but I think that has more to do with families who are willing to help them through it until they can get on their feet, or the girls just refusing to give the babies up because they choose to raise them regardless of what the situation is. I doubt it has anything to do with agencies and any counseling they give. The agencies are in it for the money.

You said, "But when you consider how many moms receive assistance that don't place, you figure they have to get the money somewhere. Ultimately, the adoptive parents are paying for the counseling of all those pregnant moms--the majority of the moms--that are keeping their babies."

Any girls who get counseling who keep the baby probably only get a couple counseling sessons or even only one before they decide to keep the baby and that isn't that much money especially if the counselors are staff at the agency and not someone outside. And as I said, I doubt 100% that the numbers are accurate. They don't have to show you their names or anything. You just have to trust that they aren't lying about that and well... I'm pretty sure they are lying.

Anyway... I could really go on and on here. I hate agencies and I hate the fact that they are so much more willing to take a baby from a single woman than help her keep it. They can say otherwise but I am pretty sure they tell people the kinds of numbers you were told just to make it sound like they're doing something to help so when the prospective adoptive parent comes along they can make them believe that the girls all did it willingly and without cooersion.

Maybe there are some who really do want to do it but as I've already said, I doubt the "norm" is willingly giving their babys away. I am sure the "norm" and majority are in desperate situations they don't believe will ever end even though they are temporary and figure the only option they have is to give the baby away. The agencies re-enforce that idea no matter what they tell someone coming in to adopt.

It's not the adoptive parents fault that the agencies are able to make them believe those things. It's the agencies who have gotten REALLY good at deception and ways to camoflauge what they're doing and being able to convince people what they want them to believe so the agency can get their money.

So many thousands of dollars is ridiculous to have to pay to adopt a child. It shouldn't be so expensive. Sliding scale or not, when people have to take out a loan or go on a game show to get the money to adopt a child is wrong. I saw a deal or no deal where the woman said she was on the show to win the money to be able to adopt a child!

Doesn't that tell you that the agencies are in it for the money? I'm sure the agencies have insurance that covers the cost of medical care and anything else and I'm sure that isn't several thousand dollars paid out of the pockets of the agency for that care. It's probably very small amount in the scheme of things. So where does all the money go that adoptive parents give them? In the pockets of the agency for the child.

Rylee

[epenn922]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

I doubt the "norm" is willingly giving their babys away. I am sure the "norm" and majority are in desperate situations they don't believe will ever end even though they are temporary and figure the only option they have is to give the baby away. The agencies re-enforce that idea no matter what they tell someone coming in to adopt.

As an adoptee, I've thought this many times, too. It seems that nmoms must be in desperate situations. If the nmom's family would've rallied around her and helped her thru in her time of desperate need, then things would've turned out much, much different for many nmoms and adoptees. I, too, think that the agencies exploit the nmom's tough situation and obvious lack of family support.

At least today, it seems the the nmoms have some input as to with whom their baby goes to. Can you imagine in closed adoptions that a baby with put with total strangers? I shake my head at that. It seems unfathomable. It just seems surreal.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Whirled Peas! :-)

Hmmm....good stuff being discussed here.

We didn't use the cheaper agency for different reasons. The more expensive agency we just could not afford. However, given that my money would have gone to help a bunch of women during hard times, I would have been okay with the costs, if we could have afforded it.

I can see how people would think this given that this is surely what they're told.

However, having been in the high echelons of corporate America for many years I would venture to say that for agencies it's strictly going to be about numbers. They're not going to tell you that of course. There'd be no profit in it, but I would seriously doubt they are putting emoms or apaps first in their everyday considerations.

Whether any of us like it or not, the reality is that agencies are a businesses the same as any other, and they are going to cover their costs straight out of the gate before they worry with counseling for emoms or anyone else.

They are simply good at not relaying that information; that's all. A corporation must have a good outward image if they expect to do business within their community. In order to do so, they must appear humanitarian in their corporate mission.

Not that I'm saying they are deliberately evil.

Still, there is no getting around the fact that if agencies were to outlay funds for any of their clients before they took care of their own bottom line, they would not be in business for long.

Please understand that I don't agree with that policy. I wish it were different. Maybe one day it can be. That would be a good thing I think because it would spare a lot of people a good deal of personal and financial grief.


Wishing you and yours a wonderful day today!

[Whirled_Peas]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

Any girls who get counseling who keep the baby probably only get a couple counseling sessons or even only one before they decide to keep the baby and that isn't that much money especially if the counselors are staff at the agency and not someone outside. And as I said, I doubt 100% that the numbers are accurate. They don't have to show you their names or anything. You just have to trust that they aren't lying about that and well... I'm pretty sure they are lying.

Having worked in the medical field, I know the range of care people get. I, too, believe $40,000 for a baby smells like baby selling. I also know how much counseling costs. If the social worker gets $20 an hour plus benefits, continuing education, etc., you figure an hour of her time costs about $50. Then there's the costs to operate the building, pay the receptionist, advertise so the moms know they exist, etc., agency costs add up. I don't know how many visits the moms get, but I know that depends on the agency.

The agency we were going to work with told us about a situation they were going to present us to. The social worker talked about different times she got together with the mom. How she would take her shopping, the type of food the mom chose (letting us know this baby was getting good prenatal nutrition.) She told us about the concerns the mom had for her situation. We were really excited this could be a match for us. Then a couple months down the road of her second trimester, the mom decided to parent. That was great for the mom and we were glad she'd gotten so much assistance from the agency.

I think we each see this differently because of our different experiences. You come from a time when adoption was so cruel. I come from a background of working in the social services and knowing there is a wide range of care.

I often warn PAPs to watch out for the type of agency you speak of. It's funny, one PAP actually complained, "All the agency cares about is the emoms. Adoptive parents just have to sit back and wait in case someone doesn't parent." I reminded her she was with a good agency that was doing it right.

There are bad agencies out there and there are good agencies. I think it just reflects poorly to say they are all lying when they are not.

When I read the horrible situation you and others experienced, I am so sad. It's just not okay. I am grateful there are agencies out there now that are doing it differently. We need to congratulate them on doing it right and we need to find ways to sort out the bad agencies so they can either change or go away.

[Amandak249]

I often warn PAPs to watch out for the type of agency you speak of. It's funny, one PAP actually complained, "All the agency cares about is the emoms. Adoptive parents just have to sit back and wait in case someone doesn't parent."

Uh yes, PAP's...that's what adoption is. You enlist with an agency or a lawyer or whatever- and wait until someone does not want to parent.

IN WHAT PARALLEL UNIVERSE COULD ADOPTION BE DEFINED AS ANYTHING DIFFERENT THAN THAT????


Oh yeah . Ours.


Arrrggggggggggg. I can't find a better word than that.

[Rylee45]

The thing about the S.W. taking the mother around to the store and that sort of thing and the girl deciding to parent, I doubt it had anything to do with the S.W. and what she did as far as helping her to decide to keep her baby. I'm pretty sure it was that her situation changed (the temporary problems sovled maybe?) were what changed her mind and not anything the S.W. said or did unless it was seeing through the lies she was being told.

I do know that it costs a lot of overhead and paying people like secretaries etc but I'm absolutely POSSITIVE it doesn't take 30,000 dollars a month for those things and I'm sure they don't only get that sum once a month either.

If all they ever did was one baby a month they wouldn't be in business. It wouldn't be worth the time. So the overhead, and the rent, and staff salary isn't going to be all that much out of their pockets in the whole of things financially speaking and what's left after all that's paid.

They don't have to pay for doctor's and hospitals because the girls are responsible for their own medical care during their pregnancy. They are also responsible for their own needs so the adoption agencies aren't paying for that. If the abency has an insurance to cover the care of uninsured girls then they are only paying a small amount compared to the total cost of what the adoptive parents are paying for the adoption and therefore the bulk of the money goes into the agencies pocket.

So many many many thousands of dollars are not going to the girl's care or the staff pay or the overhead to buildings etc.

Even just 75 babies a year averages out to about 6 babies a month at 20 to 30 thousand dollars a baby. That's $120,000.00 a month for 20 thousand a baby. $180,000.00 a month for 30 thousand dollars a baby. $240,000.00 a month for 40 thousand dollars a baby.

And for only $10,000.00 a baby it still ads up to $60,000.00 a month for 6 baby adopted each month. There are probably more babies a month going out there for adoption now and then and I'm sure there are even more babies going out for adoption than they are admitting to in their records to adoptive parents.

I absolutely do not beleive the overhead and staff pay or any counseling for the girls cost even anywhere near $60,000.00 a month. They're making money hand over fist for the babies they get adopted.

They are a business. They have to be making money or they wouldn't stay in business. If it wasn't worth the time they wouldn't do it. They'll do anything they can to get that almighty dollar at the cost of a lot of heartache they couldn't care less they are causing as long as they get their gubby little hands on all that money.

Rylee

[epenn922]

--and they made a little money off of me -- certainly it wasn't much, but my bmom has said in public that catholic charities shouldn't have given me my (non-iden) info. Well, they didn't GIVE it to me, they SOLD it to me. I don't remember how much it cost, but it was well over $100, 12 years ago for a couple of sheets of paper -- without any identifying info, of course. Maybe it cost $100 to put a sticky over identifying info when they copied the paper.

[Rylee45]

The stuff I got back from the agency at the time when I threw that fit and told them I was going to sue them if they didn't give us our stuff was sent to me for free. I think they had something to hide and just got us taken care of when they sent our stuff. I don't know. I just know we didn't have to pay anything for the stuff we got and it was quite a huge package.

Rylee

[Whirled_Peas]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

The thing about the S.W. taking the mother around to the store and that sort of thing and the girl deciding to parent, I doubt it had anything to do with the S.W. and what she did as far as helping her to decide to keep her baby. I'm pretty sure it was that her situation changed (the temporary problems sovled maybe?) were what changed her mind and not anything the S.W. said or did unless it was seeing through the lies she was being told.

Rylee, since you seem to know what happens between every social worker and every pregnant mom in this country, we really can't have a conversation. You know it all. There is no room in your world that maybe there are some kind people who want to help. How sad for you.

I am appalled that there are people making unreasonable amounts of money selling babies (and that's what unscrupulous agencies are doing.) But they are not all like that.

I feel sad for you that you can't see there is good in the world. All you see is your own bitterness and bad experience. I hope that someday you will see there is good out here.

You have chased me away from this conversation. I wonder how many people in your world you have chased away because you are right and they are wrong. Think about it.

[dpen6]

Whirled peas

Little defensive there? Maybe she has every reason to beleive what she does, Maybe she does't see it as "wonderful" as you do...why shouldshe..she lost a child(whter it was for the best orworst of reasons) and you gained a child(whether for the best or worst of reasons).

So as much as you may pecrieve her as bitter and angry(andshe may be) yopur missing the point on why she feels that way.

How easy for all adoptive parents and the world in general if those pesky bmoms andadoptee would just "get over it"and let adoptive parents be the aprent!

The thing is that the word needs to get out therethat there ARE unscrupulous angency's, there are unscrupulous paps that will do and say ANyTHING to get the babe, and it can't be shoved under the rug as to make everyone else look better.

Ifa child is placed for adoption for the wrong reasons, if a child loses their biology and family for the wrong reasons, for the need of others or for the financial gain of others it is a sin against that child. Just as bad as a child staying with bio's that is being abused or neglected. The same kind of reaction from people that react to children staying with those kinds of parent needs to be in situions where the child does not really NEED to be adopted.

The problem is that there have been to many of those bad experiances.

Trust me when I say that after the fact it is not healthy for anyone to stay in the bitterness in does't help them or their child but maybe if we saw the real situations for what they are, if we as a society would open up our eyes and actually see whats going on then maybe we can be at peace with the situions that adoption was appropriate and prevent ones thatare not.

[Rylee45]

I decided to delete what I wrote after I posted it to Whirled_Peas. I appreciate what you said dpen6. And you're right. Thank you for defending me. I don't need anyone's approval in my life but I do appreciate someone understanding how I feel and saying something like that.

Rylee