[Amandak249]

S

ometimes I'm afraid of posting on the adoptee-support boards. I am not an adoptee, therefore I can't possibly relate to anything being said, or so it seems. I feel like I'm walking a tightrope, and if I don't toe the line, I'll get pushed off.

Ugh. I don't know who, if anyone in particular, is giving off these vibes. That forum is missing out on some great insight that only you could give.


I know that wasn't much of an answer. I know I'm not the one who you're looking for support from. Just a quick side note.

[belleinblue1978]

Great words Janey.

I'm one of those people that is a short timer and actually a lifer. It's so difficult and emotional sometimes and I don't know where I fit. I feel silenced as an adopted person sometimes and sometimes as a first mother. I feel like I can't win for losing.

I will say, when the going gets tough I think of those that have gone before me...

Thanks Raven and Paige for the nice words. Where would I be without the wisdom of you my friends?

[Janeytwo]

Crick, Paige and Belle - Thank you all for your kind words in response to my post. Part of me was like, "Gee, are people going to read this and think I actually did time in the hoosegow?" LOL! Oh and Kathy and Crick - I mention you guys again further down in my response to Raven. Maybe you could go read it and give us your response? (hint, hint)

And Paige you are so right, the women here are strong. I had felt that sometimes I didn't belong because there are women in here who are just outstanding!!!

Then I realized we're all outstanding in our way. We take a lickin and keep on tickin.


Kathy

The positive on A.com is that most of us continue to try to converse... to hear... and to be heard.

Yes indeed! As Amanda said, adoption is not a topic for the weak.


Blacksheep

One "sentence" I didn't "deserve" and another that I naively "chose" for myself.

And you say you don't write eloquently. Not so! This is a very eloquent statement, in my humble opinion.


Raven

We are from another era, one that will soon just be remembered in history books.

I believe that you are right here my friend. We will all pass into history and though our individual histories cannot be re-written (to do so would be a great disservice to myself in my opinion)......still they can honored. But (IMO) it can only be honored by those who lived it. Others can either tip their hat in respect or throw it at us in disgust, but only we can wear it.

I am often reminded that I don't really matter...that it's not about me...that I must always think first about the needs and feelings of others who aren't in my cellblock.

Perhaps this is what Kathy and Crick meant about communication. I don't know, I'm hoping they'll read this and give us their very learned opinion (said with true respect for Kathy and Crick).

But I've heard them both say more than once that others are giving their opinion and we don't have to own that.

This is what I have a hard time with. I think because like everybody else, I have some unhealed part of me down there that I'm not aware of that comes raging out when someone inadvertently pokes at it.

Of course, there are those who deliberately poke at it. And after I've had my meltdown, I simply remember that those people need to get an existence or a prescription for some really good drugs. LOL!!

But everyone else is simply doing what I am doing....trying to be heard. We are all standing on the Great Divide, trying to find a way to reach the valley and each other. A monumental task taken only by the bravest of souls. (Spoken with humility and all credit to God).

It's a different time, a different world...with different challenges. And I am getting older and more tired by the day

I understand this. I came across this saying once, it went something like this (loosely from memory):

In our 20's we know everything and are perfectly willing to share our vast knowledge.

In our 30's we begin to fear we don't know a dang thing.

In our 40's we accept that what we know doesn't amount to a hill of beans.

In our 50's and 60's we don't care what we don't know; all we do know is that life is short and we'd best enjoy it.

In our 70's and 80's we actually do know everything but nobody wants to listen.



((( Raven )))


And yes, the world's waters are dark. But they are also teeming with life and color and sand beaches.

As long as we have a voice to each other and a belief in our right to be heard, that voice will not fall on deaf ears. There will be someone, somewhere nodding their head saying, "Yeah man. I get that!"


Love you guys!

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I've always been a person who sets great store in making a difference in this world. I've been that way forever, from the moment I could stand on my own two feet and talk.

From this experience, I know that I matter as a human being. But I don't think I matter as a birthmother, not really. I don't think that what I have to say matters very much, mainly because times have changed; the experiences and reasons behind those experiences belong to those of us who are growing old. We are from another era, one that will soon just be remembered in history books.

With all due respect, I could not disagree more with your second point. I have always lived my life speaking my mind and trying to make a difference... in small ways and in big ways. The bottom line is that I have had a lot of people try and silence me, disregard me and generally try and diminish me. I have had to grow a hide two feet thick. Deep down I know what is true and right and I am more than willing to fight for it.

Raven, you have no idea as to whether or not your words matter. More than likely you have touched thousands of souls without being aware of it. How do you know how just one of your posts made the difference in the lives of others? That is what pay it forward is all about. We send things out there and we do not know the chain it creates.

I keep plugging away (and I think you do too) because we truly believe in our hearts that what we have to say matters. And if it just touches one life, it is worth the work, and making ourselves vulnerable by putting ourselves out there.

Of course it helps to hear it every once in awhile. So I want to say thank-you. Your words have meant a lot to me, and I think, many others here as well.

In the Velveteen Rabbit, the little stuffed rabbit becomes a real rabbit not only because he has been so loved by the little boy, but because he loved that little boy first. Loving our children, whether they love us back or not, is what makes us real.

[TxMom65]

I hope I'm not offending anyone by posting here. I'm an adoptive mom, one whose daughter was in foster care for several years. She has trouble sorting her way with her feelings for her birthmom at times. She often projects these feelings onto animals. She cares for all animals in need and wants to be a vet.

Anyway, she found a tiny baby kitten at the neighbor's Friday morning. The mother cat had left it there and it was too small to wean. It probably isn't even 2 weeks old. We are feeding in shifts now. It was touch and go for a while but I think it is going to make it.

She asked me why the mother cat would abandon it. I looked it up and read to her that sometimes she doesn't have enough milk, sometimes the babies are in danger, sometimes the mother cat has a psychological problem, and sometimes you never know the reason.

I'm not at all comparing you to cats. But I saw a lightbulb go off in her head when I read that. The mother who gave birth to my daughter is very real. No matter what we ever do together I can't say that I gave birth to her. I didn't. I tell my daughter that it is OK to love her and talk about her, think about her. THere are more issues in our case than a typical adoption but still, it is just how it is.

I'm sleep deprived so I will end here. I will probably come back after church and regret posting this!

Oh, PS. My daughter wrote a short story that MAY be published in a nationally known book soon. We were sent a contract so if it is, I will be screaming about it here. Of course, it is about her dog and how she learned to deal with her adoption through him. So what does that make me?

[lovemy2boys]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I don't think that what I have to say matters very much, mainly because times have changed; the experiences and reasons behind those experiences belong to those of us who are growing old. We are from another era, one that will soon just be remembered in history books.

Woah Woah Woah Woah WOAH!!!!!! (and this goes to you too, Janey in reference to your posts and also ties into the 20's...30's poem)

Listen. I'll concede that there is "some" truth to what you're saying...that adoption is evolving from the closed era to the open era, and thus many factors of adoption are changing.

Add to that the increase of international adoption, the increase in avenues to "find" firstparents, children families, etc...plus the explosion of celebs shedding light on adoptions, well...yes. Times are a-changing.

But the complexities don't change. Feelings of hurt, loss, inferiority don't change. The fact that OA is not always accepted hasn't changed.

(and here comes the part where I address the "quote" - haha)

Even though you are not OF the OA era doesn't mean your words aren't of merit. Doesn't mean your experiences are antiquated. In fact, like Janey mentioned SOMEWHERE in the forums (can't remember if it's this thread or not -haha) there are more similarities to OA and reunion than we give credit...

And here's the thing. Isn't it the "way of life" to learn from those who've gone before us? Haven't we all heard a billion stories from our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents that have explained how things were in "their day"? (not saying you're old, people - just trying to make a point)...

Janey's poem is right - young people don't always "WANT" to hear the stories. I remember being at my grandparent's houses and hearing all their stories and being semi-interested...Fascinated at their stories of days past, but thinking "What does this have to do with me..." Yeah. Ask me who I consider the two most influential people in my life. And it's not because one could polka like the dickens and the other treated me like I was an angel sent from heaven.

Nope. It's because each and every one of their stories had a significance. Each of their stories had an underlying message that, although vastly different from my own experiences, still had the similarities and depth that resonated with me...even to this day.

Don't sell yourself short. Don't think your experiences are invalid. Maybe one day they WILL be a thing for the adoption history books...But until that time (which is further away than I suspect), keep talking ladies.

[-maggie]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

From this experience, I know that I matter as a human being. But I don't think I matter as a birthmother, not really. I don't think that what I have to say matters very much, mainly because times have changed; the experiences and reasons behind those experiences belong to those of us who are growing old. We are from another era, one that will soon just be remembered in history books.

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I like the idea of having a refuge where I can express my own feelings, explore my own needs, where I can share with women who know what it's like to be thrown into solitary confinement with a life sentence. But somehow when I try to do this on very specific birthmom-support threads, I am often reminded that I don't really matter...that it's not about me...that I must always think first about the needs and feelings of others who aren't in my cellblock. I am serving a lifelong sentence, one of my own doing, and I cannot find that refuge I've been desperately seeking. I am a phantom, a ghost in the darkness.

I gotta tell you Raven, if it weren't for your posts when I first found this site..... I would still be in the darkness. Your posts have helped me in ways that I can't even articulate. I thought no one could understand what was going on with me... then I read your posts. Even though I am not from the closed era, your words were like a life line being thrown to me. I was able to come out and begin the rest of my journey out of the darkness. I think birth mom support threads are the most healing, whether it is here or elsewhere. Birth moms need the support of others to get through the rough times. No one else in the world understands like another birth mom.

Raven.... you matter as a birth mom! You are making a difference!!! You may not 'see' it, but you are definately reaching people who need to hear your words!

You have made a HUGE difference in my life. I was desperate by the time I finally found this site and I am deeply grateful for the birth moms here! I am scared to death to think of where I'd be without you!!!

[-maggie]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

We do have a voice but it belongs to us. That is what I mean when I say that we do not matter. We do matter but only in so much as what we have experienced can be shared among us and healed.

Open Adoption belongs to the young and it is the young who must change it.

Janey, I understand where you are coming from and I hear your frustration. The healing amongst birth mom's is so important. Sharing with birth mom's has been key for me. However, I do believe that you matter REGARDLESS of the differences in open and closed, the emotions and the pain of relinquishment seem to be quite similar.

JMHO I gotta disagree with ya that only the young can change it. The younger generations need your insight, experience, and guidance. The women of the closed era have so much to offer! History must be taught and understood or we are doomed to repeat.

Love ya Janey!!!

[Janeytwo]

Hey All,

Thank you for your kind responses. I am not sure I communicated my point accurately.

But I always appreciate everyone's responses back.

[kakuehl]

Do you all remember the saying, "Those who don't know history are bound (or is it doomed?) to repeat it?" I think that's true of adoption too. "The more things change, the more they stay the same" is another saying that comes to mind. (I'm full of cliches today, sorry.) While the "rules" of adoption change, it seems to me that the emotions remain the same. Each side of the triad will continue to experience adoption based on their own situations. Even in open adoptions adoptees will question why and what it means for themselves that their birth family chose to relinquish them; birth moms will continue to struggle with loss. In fact, as I read the stories of many of the younger members in the forum as they struggle through open adoption both adoptive and birth parents comment how hard it is, especially since each seems to have different expectations. My hope is that the adoptees do benefit. The truth is that all of us struggle with loss; we can learn from each other when we listen to the stories of others.

Janey, I think that it is important that we remember that most of us who post aren't seeking to hurt others. There is no way I can know all your hidden triggers, for example, and I have no desire to trigger them. (Ok, there are times when I am counseling that I may seek them --- that is not something I do on line!) I was simply reminding all of us if two things: 1 that the way we hear a statement may not be what the speaker/writer was trying to say, and 2, that what I say or write may be understood in a way that I didn't intend.

I think, Janey and Raven, that all of us have something to offer. I can learn and grow from listening to any of us. The frustrating thing for all of us is when a person or persons do not respect that our feelings and experiences are true, because they are our own experiences. As a pastor, all I can do is "plant seeds"; I can't make the seed grow. As a teacher I can help you learn many things, but only when you are open to hearing my words. I thank God that I am not responsible for "growth"; my job is to share God's unconditional love unconditionally!

[txrnr]

When I came here a few years ago I would have said my birthmother was not my real mother. I would not have said this with animosity, or with the intent to hurt a soul. I wasn't considering reunion, simply looking for non-id info and thought I may get a clue of what I may find in it by looking here.

Being fascinated by other's stories and lives, I began to read, at first about other adoptees and their journeys, then about birthmothers. I began to learn, and my mind opened (and I never realized it was closed) and I realized for the first time that birthmother's were real. I think as children we define real by things we can touch or at least know of. For many of us, neither was possible. My bmom was always "too young" and gave me up out of love. That is all I knew.

Listening to you all, how much you still hurt even years after, how you've gone on with your lives but held on to this piece of your past has touched me, and made me realize thinngs aren't so cut and dry. Ask me today and I certainly say you're our real mothers. You weren't given the chance to parent us, but you put our interests first, never stopped caring, and still look out for us today. That certainly seems like something a mother would do to me.

[Janeytwo]

Hey All!

It seems I have inadvertently opened a can of worms. Big surprise there, huh? Feels like that's all I do in here. Good grief!!

Actually I suppose I can blame my dear friend Raven, seeing as how she started it!!! (just kidding buddy....just kidding).


This post starts out in one way and then ends in another. Strange....I ask for latitude.



I'm not sure how to quanitify what it is I'm trying to say.

But let me start by saying that I in no way think myself and others from the Closed Era don't matter. Also I certainly don't think people from OA don't matter. Everyone matters.

I didn't put that real good initially did I? LOL!

And yes, OA and CE (for closed era) are similar in the fact of reunion. It's just that OA is dealing with it all up front and CE is dealing with it at the end of the line. And the emotions and grappling with where we stand....I would say most definately they are equal. The two people who pointed that out are spot-on in that argument, IMO.


Now.....here's where the rubber meets the tarmac and Janey gets burned like the tires on Ashley Force's rail. LOL!


I have tried to think of what it is that has changed between OA and CE. I mean, clearly, they have different issues or they wouldn't be divided in this forum - at least that's how I perceive it.

Hmmm...where to start?

The ever-wise and articulate Kathy said something interesting.

In fact, as I read the stories of many of the younger members in the forum as they struggle through open adoption both adoptive and birth parents comment how hard it is, especially since each seems to have different expectations.

If you guys all go back and read what I wrote about San Quentin you'll see that I stated the same thing; I just did a cruddy job of it.

My retort? We had no expectations in CE. They weren't allowed. There was one rule. Forget, go on, your children won't even think of you.

OA negates this at the outset for obvious reasons. I mean, take this site for instance. Parents on both sides literally have electronic proof of their love for their children and how they struggled "right then and there" with themselves and each other as they came to some reasonable agreement that each could live with. It's there on the net for all eternity. Spoken in "e-time" which is a sort of "real time".

We of CE have arrived at the party too late. They're out of chip dip and all that's left to drink is some flat tonic water.

By the time our children find us they have so little to go on that they have had to make it up themselves or take the word of some organization as to what we were.

Our credibility is shot.

The brutal enforced law of CE which through it's strong-armed silence predicated that we would be villains, unable to defend ourselves against any and all accusations? We can't change that. We can talk till we're blue in the face. The damage is done.

Look, they can aire Juno all they want. It's still no accident - in my humble opinion -that Juno was set in this time and not in the 60's. Nobody would buy that. At best they'd think it was some hippy-dippy Lifetime Channel saga.

An interesting side note about that movie by the way. The members of my family who flocked to see that film all called me on the phone the next day telling me how I "had to see it!!!" how I "will really understand how important my decision was" how "I should be proud of what I did because Closed Adoptions are the right way to do things".

!!!!!!!!!

Golly gee batman. Apparently I didn't understand the importance of my decision. I simply thought I was signing for an auto loan. Who knew, huh?

And that statement made about how CE is the right way? That's not the first time I've heard that

Just one more prejudice OA faces. Some might not know this (though I'm sure they probably do and then try not to puke on any given day)..... but a lot of people on the outside don't approve of OA. I've heard some ugly comments about it that will remain with me and not shared here. Suffice it to say, the more I listen to the public speak about open adoption, the more frightened I become of the public's ignorance.

They be a lottah folks out there talkin out they whizway!

And when I try to defend OA's better points? I'm told that I am from another time and cannot understand.

I'm ****ed if I say anything. I'm ****ed if I don't. Either way, I am from "another time" and need to learn my place.

And it seems to me as if our place is at the bottom of the barrel. As if we of CE are the dregs of the adoption equation.

That's how it feels.

No doubt people will reassure me I am wrong which is a good thing but but deep down - it's as if I feel that everyone knows it's true but they just would never say it openly.

Yet Kathy and all of your are also right in that our voices count.

If someone gets something out of what we say that's awesome. I am glad of it! :-) :-)

But is that why we should be speaking? Are we here telling our tale for the sake of others or are we here telling it for the sake of ourselves. If the answer isn't "door number 2" then I fear we may be wasting our time.

That's as honest as I can be.


Now I shall wait to be hung at the Old Bailey like any decent British girl should.

I love you guys - all of you - and hope the feeling is still mutual.

[quantum]

My relinquished son sent me Juno. What does THAT mean?
I think he kind of enjoyed it as a movie, and thought I would. I also think he has this fantasy of that's what it was like for me. Kind of, I guess. Without the anguish, of course. If I'd had the option of choosing parents, I would have liked that!

I don't know why you think you should get hung at the Old Bailey Janey! You're just telling it like it is, and eloquently I might add.

There IS such a huge difference between CE and OA adoptions. BUT we can learn from each other, and we do share a lot certainly as far as emotions and so on goes. I guess I feel a bit like this when thinking about 'The Girls Who Went Away' and debating having my parents read it. They wouldn't get it. They would say 'but we didn't send you away to a home, it's COMPLETELY different. And we let you make your OWN choice of course.'
But I did relate to a LOT. It was MY choice, but my mom pretended I was still at college when she talked on the phone. It was TOTALLY different then going to one of the homes, but I still had no choice as far as seeing my child (at least no one told me I had a choice).

Sorry, now I'm making myself sad.

This is a good discussion and I've been glad to read it (although it's always easy to have misunderstandings online of course, I hope everyone feels they've been sorted out).

In some ways, I don't feel real. Actually,it's kind of funny. Two years after I relinquished, I started talking to a counseler at college. I told her how sometimes I walked around and just felt a bit numb, like nothing was really real. She suggested I go see someone who could prescribe drugs, I stopped going. I wasn't feeling real.
Here was this HUGE thing that I was not allowed to talk about. A HUGE part of who I was mentally and physically. I told serious boyfriends but it was sort of like I mentioned it and then was never to bring it up again. Not real. What happened to me was not real. Mother's day would come and go and I couldn't acknowledge it outwardly, my motherhood was not real.

For me, it's been the struggle between the conflicting emotions and what I'm 'allowed'. So, it's really 'good' that I relinquished my son BUT it's 'BAD' for me to talk about it. I'm a 'mother' but not allowed to celebrate mother's day. I'm a 'mother' but with no child that I'm raising.
How am I supposed to 'forget about it' when everything I go to the OB/GYN they ask if I have any children. I say 'no' but isn't it obvious? I guess it's been easier now that I have kids I'm raising myself but still, there were 18 years of the other stuff. Rude people looking at my belly saying 'are you pregnant?' how much that hurt.

Ooops, I'm venting.

I'm screaming on the inside 'I AM REAL', but on the outside I have people screaming at me 'WE DO NOT WANT TO KNOW.'

Sorry I'm not so eloquent as others here. :-) I just felt the need let it out.

[crick]

I think what resonated the most with me on the San Quentin post is that the common ties everyone has points to the same need for understanding and acceptance. ALL of it matters, and you might not reach everyone depending on which "side" they feel most comfortable in, but in the end, we all just want acknowledgement of our struggles to reach the same result.
Maybe we don't matter to others in the same ways, but each of us have things to overcome and then teach. I don't know what it's like to have an OA, but BECAUSE I'm in a closed, I can perhaps see things and offer things that those so closely involved cannot see. I can also learn from the OA's the benefits that my children are not receiving and try to adjust for those.

For example, I can't do contact, but I can at least open the door for that possibility later. If I sit here and just say "Well, bmom doesn't matter because of xx and yy",
I'd be doing a disservice to my children. It's not my decision to make nor my right. She might not matter to ME personally in many ways, but she just might matter to my kids. What kind of mom would I be if I sat in my little closed box never cracking it open? True, my children were not blessed with a bmom who had their best interests at heart or made a plan for their future. However, even with that, she is a part of them and it's going to be up to them to decide how much of a part she plays in their life later. As much as I would love to sweep it under the rug at times (and believe me, with my anger towards her & bdad, it's VERY tempting), I still come back to the place where I read from adoptees everywhere that it's their decision. I learned that here and maybe there were times I didn't want to hear it, but there it is. "Well this doesn't apply to MY children because their bmom was not a good person." Huh, pretty presumptuous of me and I had to learn that lesson.

I think too that the OA's can still learn from the closed folks. The thinking that OA is a solution and all will be fine and happy with no work involved is a very dangerous road to travel, imo. Those who realize that and know it takes work will do so, but those who do not...they need to hear all the voices from all sides. Every perspective counts because otherwise we have nothing to apply it to, to compare to, and to strive for differences and growth. An amom wanting to close contact needs to hear from those in closed adoptions so they can weigh all points and decisions. In the end, they'll do what is best for the child (I HOPE), but how do you weigh all that without any input? We don't even buy cars without researching every single kind out there and weighing all the options, so how can we truly make decisions of such a personal impact without "research"?

As for wasting our time and voices....I don't believe that's true. There is always someone to reach, but beyond that, WE matter too. I voice a lot of thoughts on here not always to reach others, but to get it out and come to terms with things for my own benefit. I think as women, we tend to care for others first and ourselves last and sometimes it just has to be about us.

We can't always please everyone when we do that, but that's just life, no? And in the same token, we can't expect agreement for it all either. I don't expect some to agree with me on some things I say or do with my children regarding their adoption. I hope to listen to their points of view but hopefully they respect my decision too and my disagreement if it's there. Our voices are all important, but not always right for everyone and you know....that's okay.

[Janeytwo]

Quantum Hey there!

I wasn't feeling real. Here was this HUGE thing that I was not allowed to talk about. A HUGE part of who I was mentally and physically. .....What happened to me was not real. Mother's day would come and go and I couldn't acknowledge it outwardly, my motherhood was not real.

Someone had said to me that they felt that's why some bmom's don't want contact. That they've spent every ounce of energy denying the truth of what happened to them and they simply can't look it in the face. It truly is something that happened to that other "self" in some other lifetime. I think that's tragic and I could've been one of them.


Recently a friend whose son died several years ago had a ceremony to honor his birthday. She sent out invitations and had a cake and balloons and friends and family gathered to celebrate his short life.

To me - loss through adoption is not the same as loss through death but I was thinking when I saw the invites that if I did something like that? People would be either too horrified to respond, too embarrassed to respond or they'd think I had some nerve.

We did not suffer loss you see. We suffered the end result of our own crimes.

but my mom pretended I was still at college when she talked on the phone.

Do they ever - way down deep in that quiet place - do our mothers ever feel sorrow for how they acted? It is a pity they can't communicate if they do. Because then we could heal and move on. Yet the past hangs between us all like a mushroom cloud.

Rude people looking at my belly saying 'are you pregnant?' how much that hurt.

Don' you just want to look at that person and say something viscious like "Oh. No. That's my disease. I only have 6 months to live."

My problem is I never think of that at the time.

Don't know why you think you should get hung at the Old Bailey Janey! You're just telling it like it is, and eloquently I might add.

(((( Quantum )))) Thanks bud!!!

LOL! I had a relative somewhere back there who was hung at the Old Bailey. But then if one is British somebody in the family has been hung for something. Sigh....we're a bloodthirsty lot!


Crick I have to go pickup my youngest. I shall return to respond to your post. And thanks in advance for posting back.

Raven Uhmmmmm....are you coming back in here or have I kidnapped your thread? Please do not hang me. LOL!!!!