[Forever_family]

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the thread. I just am sad that it feels to me like people are being attacked for their opinions, and this is going in all directions but I'm speaking more specifically of Amanda....and I realize that this is a sensitive and tough topic and that she has some extremely opinionated ideas-based on HER adoption experience. I do not feel she is trying to blanket this towards all birth parents/adoptive parents and all situations. I feel she is trying to share her feelings.

I have struggled to find adoptees on this board who are willing to share experience on how their adoptive parents/birth parents played a role in their lives. I would hate for Amanda or any other adoptee to be driven away based on posting of their opinions. She stated clearly several times this is her adoption experience and that she realizes it doesn't apply to each situation.

[Dickons]

[quote]

Originally Posted by OakShannon

But . . . My son's birthmom is very real. She is part of him and he a part of her. I think we have to have enough compassion to go around, because life can be ****ably hard sometimes. I know that "S's" life is harder than mine has ever been or is ever likely to be. And we are still human, still have value, even with our mistakes and struggles. My son was taken from his mother for good reasons. But the idea that this means she cannot be a "true" mother who grieves is sad to me. And I think she cannot be diminished without diminishing a part of my son as well. His story does not have a pretty beginning and I can't excuse everything his birthmother has done. And yet . . .

quote]

OakShannon,

You have a wonderful soul, perhaps best described as a person with an 'old soul' if that is still used today. I agree with what you said but I was trying very hard to clarify that the abuse had been proven and obviously failed...and was trying in a very polite way to identify those parents who for whatever reasons horribly physically and mentally abuse their children because they think they have the right to do it because they are their children. I am not and was not talking about parents whose children are in the system who struggle to overcome addictions and are horrified that their life and their childrens lives have been hurt because of their addiction, but still cannot overcome the demons for whatever reason.

Hopefully that made sense.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[paigeturner]

Originally Posted by Forever_family

This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the thread. I just am sad that it feels to me like people are being attacked for their opinions, and this is going in all directions but I'm speaking more specifically of Amanda....and I realize that this is a sensitive and tough topic and that she has some extremely opinionated ideas-based on HER adoption experience. I do not feel she is trying to blanket this towards all birth parents/adoptive parents and all situations. I feel she is trying to share her feelings.

I have struggled to find adoptees on this board who are willing to share experience on how their adoptive parents/birth parents played a role in their lives. I would hate for Amanda or any other adoptee to be driven away based on posting of their opinions. She stated clearly several times this is her adoption experience and that she realizes it doesn't apply to each situation.

This is a thread on the Birth Parent Support Forum, started by a birth mother! Having said that, the forums here are not segregated and posts from other members of the triad are not only allowed, but welcomed. I sincerely doubt that Amanda will turn tail and leave simply because not everyone agreed with her. The Amanda that I have become acquainted with thru her heart-felt, articulate posts is strong. And I agree with you that it would be a loss if she quit posting.

However, we all have a right to state our beliefs from our differing perspectives. We have the right to point out our differences and if birth parents can’t state their differences of opinion on this forum, then where? I haven’t read a post on this thread that was disrespectful towards Amanda.

It seems to me the point of your post was to scold the birth parents here for making a point – I say that because you didn’t attempt to participate in the conversation in any meaningful way – why the need to bounce on, wag your finger at us and leave? I guess it sucks when a group of people refuse to remain silent and disenfranchised, doesn’t it?

[Amandak249]

Forever-

Thanks! But don’t worry about it, I’m a big girl! We’re all friends here, and sometimes talking about the really raw stuff can get sticky. We all react on our feelings, it’s natural.

It angers me to no end to see awesome, capable people, particularly birthmothers, on this thread who keep getting the short end of the stick from society. They deserve more, and I believe that one day they'll get it. I’ve learned a lot after reading this thread, and seeing the pain of the people who post. I have my own share of pain. We’re all just trying to learn. If we wanted to post merely to have everyone agree with us, then we wouldn’t be doing much learning. I think it’s good that we have a variety of opinions, as long as we watch other people’s feelings.

[In_limbo_for_now]

I went through a childhood that poeple write books about, the kind we could not completely explain to our children. Intermixed with the abuse there were good times and good memories. I am sure that many children in foster care could say the same thing. If I, as an adult, can have conflicting feelings about my childhood, then; who am I to tell my children that the feelings they have for Bparents is wrong? It is difficult to understand how a child can love someone who abuses them but they do.

I as a parent I hope to be understanding and love my children with everything I am.

[Dickons]

Seriously? Do you actually read the posts made by adoptees and listen to their words? I have posted many many posts on just that very subject, and there are also many more adoptees on this board who do as well and in fact much more vehemently than I. Try listening.

Regards,
Dickons

[Amandak249]

I'm not going anywhere. I love it here, and I think we all benefit from eachother. If every person who felt the tiniest bit hurt on these forums left , these boards would be pretty quiet.

Adoption is not a topic for the weak It absolutely can hurt- for any of us.

[kakuehl]

Originally Posted by Amandak249

Woah, woah woah. You misunderstood what I was saying. Clarification time.



When I mentioned that my parents were educated, I meant only in the realm of psychiatry, as they are both psychiatrists. I pointed that out ONLY to say that perfectly knowledgeable people are falling for the "adoption stereotypes" and people who SHOULD, in theory, know better are just as affected as everyone else. It surprised me that my parents, who are usually so impartial and level headed with their emotions, would discount my birthmother throughout my life. It's so out of their characters! My parents where very open about my adoption, and have encouraged me even throughout reunion and all of the struggles it brings. This is the only area where we don't see eye to eye. I was making a point that these stigmas, these preconceived notions about adoption and the roles of each person involved, can affect EVERYONE, regardless of their roles and their personalities. No judgment intended, none whatsoever. I love that the people on these forums " see whats up", and refuse to be molded into what people would normally consider " the roles of the triad." It's a shame not everyone can see it the way many people here see it.




I suspect it is hard for either set of my parents to give the other set much credit. Just a reality of my adoption. Nothing that is set in stone, or that I suspect is uniform in the adoption world. My parents believe that I am who I am because of how they've raised me, and that biology plays only a small part. My birthfamily , especially my birthfather, had trouble over the years accepting his boundaries as my birthfather, and as a beloved person in my life, and not as my primary father and decision maker. I saw him as my father, but not in the same sense that he saw me as his daughter.



My birthmother has a beautiful personality. She is bubbly and sweet and caring and emotional. I have spent time with her over the years. I've spoken to her for hours on the telephone, and I've spent days with her in person. When she is not under the influence, which unfortunately is not very often, she is an amazing person. I am positive, though, that due to her addictions she could not have been a good mother to me, as she has shown with all of the children she attempted to parent. I love her for what she is and who she is in my life, but she's not quite " mom." She's something else entirely, someone who gave me my face and my heart and my talents and my inherited traits. She loves me and I know she does. I love her too, and she considers me her daughter, but it is hard for me to consider her a mother in the same way.

.I have read about it a lot on these forums. so we really are a sum of our parents(both birth and bio) parts and feel that you should respect that but most importanly your parents should respect that.




Agreed.



I struggle to do that everyday. I hope one day to figure it out- to understand where everyone fits into my life, and keep them neatly where they belong. I suspect that this will never happen, as roles in adoption are often undefinable- capable of being categorized only by a feeling.

Originally Posted by Amandak249

Hope I've made things a bit clearer.

Amanda,

I heard what you were saying about your parents. It's interesting that psychiatric/psychological training doesn't necessarily help when we deal with issues in our own lives. I always believed that nurture was more important in the nature/nurture argument. When I met my bson for the first time I was amazed at some of the gestures he made, the way he said things. My DH and I both saw much of his bfather in him. D has my personality and would fit very well into my family. I must admit that his parents have similar education and values to my own so it may be hard to decide what is nurture and what is nature.

At this point he is a grown man with a family of his own. It would be my hope for him that he has been able to assimilate all the parts that make him up. All of us are a total of all the experiences we have. I hear Amanda say that she, like many of the rest of us, is seeking to make sense of the stuff that went into making us who we are.


I always find it helpful to remember something that was emphasized when I was in seminary... (by the way, 3 of D's "parents" are or were ELCA pastors, his mother - not me - is a social worker). All of us speak a different language. Even when we know the dictionary definition, the meaning of a word for each of us is colored by our own experiences so that a word which is positive or neutral for one person may be very negative for another. One of the reason our discussions get so heated is that when you say something, I hear(read) with my own experiences. When I express my thoughts, you feel I'm telling you that your thoughts/feelings are wrong or have no value. From there the discussion goes down hill.


Sometimes we just need to say "I hear you saying" and allow the person to know they've been heard before adding a "but here's where I am."

The positive on A.com is that most of us continue to try to converse... to hear... and to be heard.

[manni28]

As an adoptee born in 1967 ( closed era) I think bmoms are real. As I stated before, I was born in 67 and my adoption was closed, I searched when I was expecting my first born, and I wanted medical info. I later found and met my bparents and got to know them-they are nice people. I now have a relationship with them that includes my children ( they are grandma & grandpa). However, my aparents will always be "mom & dad", my parents. To me, if my bparents weren't people that I would normally associate myself with I wouldn't invite them into my life. My bparents were two teenagers when they had me-they were too young to take care of themselves, let alone a baby. I am grateful that God blessed me with good aparents. They always told me that my bparents loved me and wanted the best for me-which was true. Because of my aparents saying nice things about my bparents, and later it being true, it made it " easier" after I met them to see them as nice 'real' people.Each of us (adoptees) has a different perspective of who we are and who is "real" to us.

Even in an OA I'm sure the adoptee knows who is "mom &dad" and who is bmom & bdad" because of the roles they have in the child's life thus ,making them both real to the child. They just have different roles.

-Manni

[Janeytwo]

Raven Hey bud!

I've thought about this thread a lot in the past two days. It's been on my mind because I am seeing something entirely different than everyone else is seeing.

I take your initial question not to mean "are we real" but "do we matter" in the face of OA. I suppose I've read it that way because you and I and others have spoken of this amongst ourselves and that is what I'm seeing here between the lines.

So I've meditated on how to explain the way that I picture it, because I, probably like some others from the Closed Era, have felt "apart" from OA. And that the message is getting lost in the midst of Roe and everything since.

I've thought a lot about how to phrase how I see it and the only thing I can do - and pardon me because this will sound either weirdly dramatic or...I dunno....skewed perhaps....but I think of the two eras of adoption as a sort of San Quentin.


The OA's (birthparents and adoptive parents alike) are doing short time in "A" Block. They are thrust immediately into the politics of the "system"; into the general population where they must quickly learn the rules or die trying. Vague promises are made on both sides regarding each other's security (in terms of their feelings, thier dignity, their rights); those promises overseen by a warden, I.e., an agency or legal entity holding the keys and the power. But because neither side has little by way of education regarding what they will face in "A" Block, they are left to fend for themselves all while trying to keep their morales intact. Five years minimum trying to come to terms with where they stand with themselves and with others; where they begin and someone else ends.

No thanks, Alex Trebec! I'll take dental surgery for $500.00.


Then there are those of us from the Closed Era. The residents of "B Block"; hardtimers doing 30 to life. We were not thrust into the fray. The warden simply locked us in solitary and threw away the key. We were left to rot in the darkness; to suffer in denial of what had gone before and why we were imprisoned in the first place. That is how it has seemed and the reason I personally believe we've made it thus far is not so much that we had the will to survive (after all, some of us didn't) but more because we learned how to avoid the battles raging around us.

Then, one day, some of us received parole. For whatever reason, we discovered that the keys had been in our possession all along. We emerged from our cells into the light but the light had grown almost painfully brilliant. In our long incarceration the world had changed; so had the rules. We found ourselves mingling with the young men and women of OA who'd already done their time on A Block and were now out grappling with their residual battles scars.

In the world of OA, I do not (my opinion) think we have a voice; at least not one that will make a difference to a system that is vastly different than the one we've known.

I also do not believe that a short-timer can understand a life sentence.

This is not to say that the men and women of Open Adoption do not tred a heavy path throughout their lives - far from it - at least I would imagine. But that path is about forward momentum; striding however haltingly into the future.

For you and I and those like us, the path goes in two directions and we must traverse them both. We must travel along the backwaters and alleys of the past in order to pave the unbuilt road of the future. All with the weight of many years in brutal solitary for company.

We do have a voice but it belongs to us. That is what I mean when I say that we do not matter. We do matter but only in so much as what we have experienced can be shared among us and healed.

Open Adoption belongs to the young and it is the young who must change it.

Hope this made sense.

Love ya much!

[crick]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

Raven Hey bud!

I've thought about this thread a lot in the past two days. It's been on my mind because I am seeing something entirely different than everyone else is seeing.

I take your initial question not to mean "are we real" but "do we matter" in the face of OA. I suppose I've read it that way because you and I and others have spoken of this amongst ourselves and that is what I'm seeing here between the lines.

So I've meditated on how to explain the way that I picture it, because I, probably like some others from the Closed Era, have felt "apart" from OA. And that the message is getting lost in the midst of Roe and everything since.

I've thought a lot about how to phrase how I see it and the only thing I can do - and pardon me because this will sound either weirdly dramatic or...I dunno....skewed perhaps....but I think of the two eras of adoption as a sort of San Quentin.


The OA's (birthparents and adoptive parents alike) are doing short time in "A" Block. They are thrust immediately into the politics of the "system"; into the general population where they must quickly learn the rules or die trying. Vague promises are made on both sides regarding each other's security (in terms of their feelings, thier dignity, their rights); those promises overseen by a warden, I.e., an agency or legal entity holding the keys and the power. But because neither side has little by way of education regarding what they will face in "A" Block, they are left to fend for themselves all while trying to keep their morales intact. Five years minimum trying to come to terms with where they stand with themselves and with others; where they begin and someone else ends.

No thanks, Alex Trebec! I'll take dental surgery for $500.00.


Then there are those of us from the Closed Era. The residents of "B Block"; hardtimers doing 30 to life. We were not thrust into the fray. The warden simply locked us in solitary and threw away the key. We were left to rot in the darkness; to suffer in denial of what had gone before and why we were imprisoned in the first place. That is how it has seemed and the reason I personally believe we've made it thus far is not so much that we had the will to survive (after all, some of us didn't) but more because we learned how to avoid the battles raging around us.

Then, one day, some of us received parole. For whatever reason, we discovered that the keys had been in our possession all along. We emerged from our cells into the light but the light had grown almost painfully brilliant. In our long incarceration the world had changed; so had the rules. We found ourselves mingling with the young men and women of OA who'd already done their time on A Block and were now out grappling with their residual battles scars.

In the world of OA, I do not (my opinion) think we have a voice; at least not one that will make a difference to a system that is vastly different than the one we've known.

I also do not believe that a short-timer can understand a life sentence.

This is not to say that the men and women of Open Adoption do not tred a heavy path throughout their lives - far from it - at least I would imagine. But that path is about forward momentum; striding however haltingly into the future.

For you and I and those like us, the path goes in two directions and we must traverse them both. We must travel along the backwaters and alleys of the past in order to pave the unbuilt road of the future. All with the weight of many years in brutal solitary for company.

We do have a voice but it belongs to us. That is what I mean when I say that we do not matter. We do matter but only in so much as what we have experienced can be shared among us and healed.

Open Adoption belongs to the young and it is the young who must change it.

Hope this made sense.

Love ya much!

Wow Janey...just wow. I have to digest all of the thoughts but wanted to tell you this is really beautiful. Might not seem that way because of all the pain involved or your intent, but to me it is. I love your writing!

[BlackSheep]

I have been reading this thread and thinking, just thinking, trying to figure out my feelings here.

Being both an adoptee and a birthmother from the closed era, I see two sides of this triad. Trying to sort out my feelings on one, the other, or both, and they are so intermingled.

Janey, I like the way that you expressed the feelings as I really feel like being in "prison" on both sides with a "life" sentence. One "sentence" I didn't "deserve" and another that I naively "chose" for myself.

I have found both bparents and was lucky that my bdaughter found me in the registry here at a.com (one of the many I was in). But even in reunion, the "lost" years are still there. While my aparents reared me, we struggled to have a relationship and still do today. In reunion, there is a struggle to figure out who each other is and where we each "fit" into the other's life.

Yes, to get back to the orignal question, we "have" to be "real", Raven. To adoptees, to aparents we are there, even if we are ghosts.

I am so elequent in my writing as others here, but I hope this post makes sense.

[paigeturner]

Janey - wow - just WOW.

You've articulated something that I haven't been able to put into words. I agree with Crick that this piece is beautiful; the stark honesty of your words grab me and won't let me go. Thank you.

These forums are really the only place that I explore my ties to the adoption world. My girls and I discuss it some, but mainly in terms of their half-brother, they've never been all that interested (or maybe it makes them uncomfortable) in how reliquishing affected me. My DH and I never discuss it.

Thank you to all the strong women who have a voice here. Whether or not that voice is heard by others is not as important as being here for each other.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by Dickons

Seriously? Do you actually read the posts made by adoptees and listen to their words? I have posted many many posts on just that very subject, and there are also many more adoptees on this board who do as well and in fact much more vehemently than I. Try listening.

Regards,
Dickons

YUP! There are many of us but no9t alkwys heard.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

RavenI've thought about this thread a lot in the past two days. It's been on my mind because I am seeing something entirely different than everyone else is seeing.

Yes, my friend, as I told you on the phone, the thread took on a life of its own, just as all threads do, lol. I didn't do a very good job in my first couple posts explaining exactly what I was thinking and feeling. Actually it's kind of hard for me to articulate it...to really put it down in words thru my keyboard.

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

I take your initial question not to mean "are we real" but "do we matter" in the face of OA. I suppose I've read it that way because you and I and others have spoken of this amongst ourselves and that is what I'm seeing here between the lines.

Yes...yes...yes. Thank you for figuring out what I was trying to say, bud. It's a changing world in many ways, but still very static in other ways. Lately I've been feeling...like the ghost in the darkness...a phantom.

I've always been a person who sets great store in making a difference in this world. I've been that way forever, from the moment I could stand on my own two feet and talk. I've shared with you before the full-fledged near-death experience I had when my son was four years old. I've told you how I was given the choice of coming back or not. I wanted to stay where I was, a place that was filled with indescribable peace, with unfathomable love, a place where there was no physical pain. I wanted to remain in that beautiful place...until I was shown what I can only describe as movies, visions of my son at various ages. I was told that he would need me as a young man, that I would make a difference in his life. I made my decision to come back.

The years have slightly dulled my memories of the "other side," but there is one thing that I have never forgotten. And that was learning how we all affect each other as human beings in this life...how we touch the lives of not only our friends and loved ones, but people we will never meet, simply as a chain reaction of sorts, kind of like the "pay it forward" concept.

From this experience, I know that I matter as a human being. But I don't think I matter as a birthmother, not really. I don't think that what I have to say matters very much, mainly because times have changed; the experiences and reasons behind those experiences belong to those of us who are growing old. We are from another era, one that will soon just be remembered in history books.

Sometimes I'm afraid to speak up on threads concerning OA, especially after reading one a couple weeks ago that pretty much said that those of us from the closed era should keep our mouths shut -- that we have nothing of value to say to our younger counterparts because we don't know what OA is all about.

Sometimes I'm afraid of posting on the adoptee-support boards. I am not an adoptee, therefore I can't possibly relate to anything being said, or so it seems. I feel like I'm walking a tightrope, and if I don't toe the line, I'll get pushed off.

I like the idea of having a refuge where I can express my own feelings, explore my own needs, where I can share with women who know what it's like to be thrown into solitary confinement with a life sentence. But somehow when I try to do this on very specific birthmom-support threads, I am often reminded that I don't really matter...that it's not about me...that I must always think first about the needs and feelings of others who aren't in my cellblock. I am serving a lifelong sentence, one of my own doing, and I cannot find that refuge I've been desperately seeking. I am a phantom, a ghost in the darkness.

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

Then there are those of us from the Closed Era. The residents of "B Block"; hardtimers doing 30 to life. We were not thrust into the fray. The warden simply locked us in solitary and threw away the key. We were left to rot in the darkness; to suffer in denial of what had gone before and why we were imprisoned in the first place. That is how it has seemed and the reason I personally believe we've made it thus far is not so much that we had the will to survive (after all, some of us didn't) but more because we learned how to avoid the battles raging around us.

As Jackie often told us, "There be dragons out there."

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

Then, one day, some of us received parole. For whatever reason, we discovered that the keys had been in our possession all along. We emerged from our cells into the light but the light had grown almost painfully brilliant. In our long incarceration the world had changed; so had the rules.

This is the "coming out of hiding". Sometimes it's tempting to knock on the prison gates and scuffle back into my cell. It is lonely, but it is familiar and safe. I know I won't be the only one to return (was I ever really free, or was it just work-furlough?). Yes, Jackie, there be dragons out there....and yes, I've come into the dark waters you warned me about. Can you hear me tapping out my message between our cells, my sister, my friend?

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

In the world of OA, I do not (my opinion) think we have a voice; at least not one that will make a difference to a system that is vastly different than the one we've known.

I also do not believe that a short-timer can understand a life sentence.

I agree...sadly. It's a different time, a different world...with different challenges. And I am getting older and more tired by the day.