[Janeytwo]

Amanda

Janey- I don't think that sarcasm is warranted, nor is it especially appreciated.

Don't worry about it. I could've spoken better. Look this stuff is tough and we are all raw in tender places.

Let me say this generally - not towards anyone person specificially,

There is a lot that I can tolerate in people's misunderstandings and/or judgements of birthmothers. Most of those judgements are made out of pain, some out of ignorance. All of them are made by us humans and us humans are flawed.

But one thing I cannot do is sit by while someone explains to me the ramifications behind the act of signing - I'm talking about the act itself.

I do not need anyone lecturing me on the legalities and finalities behind my decision to relinquish. I was in full use of my faculties when I signed and understood what I was signing. To have anyone infer that I now need relinquishment explained to me is, quite frankly, insulting.

That moment when I signed. No one and nothing is going to take that from me. It's not going to happen.

Then - not only am I being talked down to as if I'm an imbecile; then people are unknowingly providing wiggling room for excuses that I personally refuse to make. I will own my decision to my deathbed. There are two people out there who -at the very least - deserve that much.

I must and I do accept that signing gave someone else the right to be a parent to my son and daughter.

Only a fool would not know that and that is a fool I would never want to be.






In closing, even people here who detest me will have to stand witness that I am the last person on this earth who would expect my son and daughter's parents to take a back seat to me. I am the last person on this earth who would expect my son and daughter to call me their "real" mom - let alone "mom". What they call me, how they feel about me is their business and I will respect that.

[dpen6]

Aww janey,

Thats just it, nobody is asking you to take a back seat or a front seat to anyone. It is what it is...it is our experiance based upon what worked for us as children...it is our reality. I think most of us adoptees don't want the tit for tat that goes on we just want to be able to assimmulate where we are and were we belong.

If you noticed Amanda's next post she was tripping over herself, groveling to be accepted....I am pretty confident that it was not meant to hurt you or anyone else.

We come on these forums at different places in our search for ourselves....

Who detests you...I don't know of anyone that detest you, I don't destest anyone...who is it?

[crick]

As I read through this thread, I see one very common shared element. And that is everyone, no matter what side of the triad, feels that if they voice their thoughts, hurt and feelings about something, they are then "told" they shouldn't or they are being silenced.

I think sometimes it's hard to look outside our personal perspectives when something is said and we take offense to it. I admit, when someone posted they had reunited with their firstmom and now don't say their aparents are their "real" parents anymore, I felt my skin bristle up a bit. But really...why in the world should that offend me? That's HER experience, HER life, HER feelings and her RIGHT. So for that split second (okay, it might have been a few minutes) I thought I was offended and had to remind myself...."It's not about you".

It's hard sometimes to put that aside (I don't always succeed at this, so don't think I'm preaching!) and remember that we ALL come from very similar places in how we want our feelings and voices heard.

The "Real" is true for every side and one side does not negate the other. I personally don't see how one thread where so many people posted "2 moms, both are real" is offensive to anyone. My dd sees her other mom as real, and why wouldn't she? She didn't come from a fairy godmother after all. That doesn't negate MY role in her life. The only time I typically correct anyone regarding the "real" is if their opinion is "real means blood" and it's not being said in a nice way. That doesn't have anything to do with my dd's firstmom at all. It's not saying she's fake just because I'm educating others telling them that shared genes is not the single and only factor that makes families.

We can't be hurt by other's personal feelings about themselves and lives. It's not our right. We can't apply statements to everyone either. That's also not our right. None of us can be the single voice for our side and then get irritated that we aren't "listened" to when someone says "you know, I disagree".

Sorry for the ramble...I just woke up this morning, saw this thread and it just hurts a bit that we do this to each other.

[julie23]

dpenn and amanda.... both your first posts on this thread brought tears to my eyes.... you are both very eloquent and well spoken... and i so very much appreciate the thoughts that you have shared... on such a complicated topic...

my youngest daughter is playing at my feet as i type.... my middle girls are off at elementary school.... my college student is probably sleeping in as she enjoys her first apartment.... and the the first daughter i gave birth to... well, i don't know where she is... or what she is doing...

for 23 years i have tried to make sense of "who" i am with this child i relinquished... for many years... i felt like her mother... i felt like she was still mine.... for other years, i felt like i was simply the woman who gave birth to her... and had no right to the word mother... and then, i spent some years believing she had two mothers.... me, and the one who raised her...

when my baby was born, not through my own body... and i cut the cord... and held her for the first time... i looked in her eyes and promised to raise her knowing she had two mothers... that we both had equal rights to that word...

but in the last fourteen months.... well, my little izzy has taught me so much.

no matter what was in my own heart regarding her two mothers.... in izzy's heart there is only one mommy....

her birthmother has never chosen to take participate in the fully open adoption that we have... and izzy does not know who she is...

she is a one year old baby... her first mom is a stranger to her.... her first mom is not real to her... (by her own choice).... a baby cannot understand such a thing....

as she grows... and begins to understand her life circumstances... i suspect her birthmother will still be something of a mystery... i do not forsee her changing her attitude towards the open adoption... but have hope that someday she will make herself real to this beautiful child... if not, i will certainly do the best i can to offer that to her...

i make myself real to izzy every day... every morning... every night... with every hug... every nose wipe... all those things, that i wasn't allowed to do for my first child...

i wasn't allowed to be real to her... that is simply how adoption works for many of us....

i was a fantasy to her... some fuzzy distorted image of some woman who gave birth to her....

my baby was born to a distant first cousin... and when she is old enough... i can force the realness... i think....

"real".... it's something tangible... i think. it's something we can get our hands around... we don't view "real" as being something abstract.... and birthmothers are abstract when they are not present in the lives of their child... i have three kiddos under the age of 9.... i've raised one up to 18... it takes years... and maturity to understand the abstract... to understand that something you cannot touch or see can be just as "real" as something you see every day of your life....

well... this very real baby of mine.... is now in my lap pulling at papers and trying to type...

[-maggie]

So I put it forth to you now: are you real? What does it mean to you to be a birth/first mother? If you could stand up on a soapbox in front of the entire world, what would you say? What would you want your children to know? What would you want your fellow human beings to know about you as a birthmom?

JMHO You are darn right I’m real!!! I am proud to be my daughter’s real mom and I am extremely proud of her!!! Just because I am her real mom doesn’t mean that her amom isn’t her real mom too!!! She has two real moms that love her to death and I am so happy that she does! Is it possible too have too much love? I refuse to compete.

I want my daughter & the world to know that her first mom loves her deeply and I am her mother... she has two. I love more than one child just as she can love more than one mother!

I totally dispise the word "real" in regards to adoption. I really don't see it as a competition. I do not know of a bmom that does. My daughter can call me whatever she wants. She is the only person that matters!

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I have tried daily to understand the adoptees' unique perspective and feelings in the collective sense on these boards. But birthmothers also have the right to voice their own feelings and thoughts about their own experiences, especially in this area of the forums. We may not be unique, but we are human beings, too. We do count...we do matter.

Raven, I too have been trying so hard to understand the adoptees unique perspective and also the aparents unique perspective, that's why I'm here on this site. I have learned so much!!! I only wish society could HEAR the bmom's perspective too. JMHO I do feel as if the general society (no person in particular) sees us as disposable. My impression is that they don't want to hear us. But, by golly, I think if we keep talking, eventually they will begin to understand. We do matter!

For what it's worth, I have always put my son first...in every way. I knew when I signed the relinquishment papers that it was the best thing for him, but the worst thing in the world for me. If I had known then what I know now, I would have torn those papers up and walked out the door. It caused too much damage to my own soul...and I don't think it did him any favors either in the grand scheme of things.

Raven, I feel exactly the same way! I am so angry with myself for believing all of the lies. I believed everything the aparents told me. I believed the agency. I believed my parents. If I could of known then what I know now, I wouldn't of gone through with it. The damage was too great.

I feel that adoption is ok when everyone is honest and an emom can make a decision knowing the truth and all of her options. I hope things have changed, but I think there needs to be some reform.

[Janeytwo]

Donna

I think most of us adoptees don't want the tit for tat that goes on we just want to be able to assimmulate where we are and were we belong.

Totally understandable. I can't imagine being told that I had no right to my history. That would be - to me - like one of those nightmares where you're running to a destination and you can't there. Or where a phone is ringing and you keep tripping and can't reach the handset. Beyond frustrating; only for a lot of us it's just a nightmare. For adoptees it's a reality. And that sucks!
Truly.


All human beings have a right to know themselves. In fact IMO - we have a duty to do so because that's the only way the world's going to change for the better. If I can't face the woman in the mirror, I can't face anything.

And stepping on toes? I've done that in here - just recently actually then I had to do my share of apologizing for my own stupidity.

I - like most other souls here I imagine - am simply trying to communicate and most of the time I fail miserably. Ask my husband - he'll tell you all about it.


Crick

The only time I typically correct anyone regarding the "real" is if their opinion is "real means blood"

God love for you this one. You know, I have 1 half-brother, 2 half-sisters, 3 stepbrothers, 1 step-sister and 2 fullblood siblings (hate that term! detest it!).

They're all family to me. I'd cut off my arm to help any one of them if that was what was required. I don't care what their status is. They are loved by me. That's all I need to know.

[Dickons]

We are all real, you cut any one of us - each of us will bleed, we say something that triggers something in another - they bleed, we see them bleed, we bleed in turn...yup we are all real and have one very large commonality, adoption.

I too am disturbed, saddened and angry by the blurring of the lines between mothers from the closed era and those mothers of today whose children removed by the state for abuse that has been proven...That blurring should be something we all fight against vigorously, there is no commonality whatsoever between being forced (because society ensured there were NO OPTIONS) to sign papers taking away a mothers right to raise her child simply because she has been judged by society as unfit because she is not married.

The same blurring occurs with mothers who chose adoption because they had no support system or family they could turn to to help them get established. Again, there is no commonality whatsoever with mothers whose children have been removed by the state for abuse that has been proven. For those mothers we should have compassion but they are not anywhere close to being true mothers who have lived with and continue to live with for their entire lives the pain and anger of losing a child to adoption because they had no other option.

My mother has always been real to me but I will never meet her, get to know her, be hugged by her or talk to her because I was too late...that is my regret and one I will take to my grave. That I was not strong enough, smart enough, or vocal enough to find her before she died and neither was she...that is tragic and did not need to be and I do judge society harshly for that.

Why can't love just be enough? Can't society understand that?

Warm regards,
Dickons

[In_limbo_for_now]

DH and I are adpoting a sibship from foster care and the world will know before they ask that our children are adpoted. On our first visit our son was ready to go home with us and called us Dad and Mama. Our family would stick out in other parts of the U.S. but in SE Michigan we should blend just fine. That does not mean we won't get the Real Mom and Dad questions. I want to protect the kids from this but I know it will happen and I hope that I as well as the kids can be proud of how we handle it.
"I must remember that slugging someone in the nose is not a mature response. "
Bmom was as much of a Mom as anyone. She just had her priorities messed up and her upbringing to overcome. I hope my kids will be able to keep the good memories and put the bad behind them as we make our memories together.

[Amandak249]

I was born and adopted in the late 80's, which I don't believe qualifies me as being from the "closed era?" I could use some clarification on that. My birth parents and adoptive parents met, and though they exchanged the occasional photo for a few years, my adoption was basically closed.

The reality is MOST of us are not born into the greatest of situations...that's another one of life's great realities....

While reading the posts, this really caught my eye. I would change that "MOST" to "MANY", and then I would agree with that statement. I suppose I never really thought of it that way. None of us here are arguing a birthmother's love-as it's safe to say that even my birthmother, who after 9 children(I was the 3rd) is still a drug addict, still an alcoholic and a felon who is wanted in 3 states, and has yet to parent one of her children, loved every single one of us. I would be curious to see if there is a correlation between "unstable" birthmothers(such as my own) and adoptees who feel a very strong loyalty to their adoptive parents.

Well I think that says it all. Why would anyone want to face a loss like that? But the bottom line is that you did lose a mother even if you do not consciously remember the experience.

Ah, very true. If there is one common element to what I've read here, it's that it can sometimes really hurt to think about our pasts, no matter what side of the triad we are on.

My adoptive parents both work and are highly educated in the psychiatric field, and they STILL told me as a child that I only had one mother, that my birthmother was just the woman who gave birth to me, and nothing more. They always said that they were thankful to her, but that I was there child, and no-one else's. They would never "discount biology," but they believe strongly that nurture, in the end, is more important than nature. And how could they not? If nature means everything, or a lot, then perhaps our family that was created in part by adoption, is "less". I don't mean to speak for any other adoptive parent's than my own here, I am merely reflecting on their behavior.

I see the opposite in my birthfather. He will argue "nature over nurture" any day of the week. To back up his claim, he will site all of my personality traits that he has as well. He will tell me that "you can place a pit bull in a family of Chihuahuas, and though that pit bull may bark like a Chihuahua, and act like a Chihuahua, he's still a pit bull."

I think it is interesting that he said things like that. If nurture is more important than nature, where does he fit into my life? Without our biological connection, he would be just another stranger on the street to me. If biology doesn't matter, then neither does he. (in theory!)


It's no wonder that we're all on edge with all of this bull**** being fed to us - by who? the media? the adoption industry at it's most corrupt? past generations? society? eachother?

It's saddening (and dare I say infuriating?) that ANY of us - whether birthmother, adoptee, or adoptive parent- is made to feel less.

Birthparents are sometimes made to feel like they mean nothing to their children, that they don't deserve to know or love the child that they "gave away."

Adoptive parents are occasionally made to feel weak if they speak of their child's birthmother with anything but mild affection, like talking about her will make THEM lesser parents. That perhaps they cannot have their "whole" child if they have to share he or she with birthparents.

And lastly adoptees, who are sometimes made to feel ungrateful if we consider our birthmother's as a mother to us. Ungrateful because "what did she ever do for you?", ungrateful because " you have better parents now- focus on what you've gained, not on what you've lost". If we are only loyal to our adoptive parents(though I've met very few individuals who fall under this category)- we can be viewed as "heartless" and "thoughtless" individuals, who do not appreciate our birthmother's love.


It's all very sad, and very, very unfortunate. Just as clarification- I am not trying to express the feelings of anyone on this board. I am just exploring examples from my own life that could be seen as "stereotypes" of some of the darker, more painful stigmas in adoption.


I'm curious as to where on earth all members of the triad got these ludicrous ideas and mentalities (the extreme examples I cited above.) With some of this negativity floating around the adoption world- all the secrecy and divided loyalties and strong feelings, it's no wonder we're all so passionate. It's no wonder it's difficult to give a clear answers, and it's no wonder the "realness" of parents (which is prettty silly, when you think about it ) is even a debate. Very sad indeed.

Very thought provoking topic , Raven.

[dpen6]

Amanda,

There are many situaions where a bmom is more then "just" anything. There are many situaions that it was notagood thing for a child to be placed and would have been better off not placed. Thats the thing about adoption there are no absolutes. Generaliztions don't work in this relm of life. To may different situaions to say anything is an absolute.

One thing I will ask you ...you say your parents discounted your bio and bfather discounted your nurture. When is it going tobe for YOU to decide what is true and what isn't. Hardto say but when I hear things like that I suspect that the parents are trying to make themselves more important...and none of that is true





The truth is we are both...your bmom had a personaility before drug addication...she was somebody she had traits and talents that you may have inherited, unfortuanltly the diesease of addication got the best of her so its hard to see what her talents may have been. Wedo inherite mannerism, likes, dislikes sometimes from our bparents and family....I have read about it a lot on these forums. so we really are a sum of our parents(both birth and bio) parts and feel that you should respect that but most importanly your parents should respect that.

When you discount bmoms as "just" you are also disouting the children she had, including yourself. This is where the lesson in compassion comes into play.

Also....you mentioned your parents being very educated....thats great...but people....bmoms included... on this board also are very educated they come from a place of intelligance along with the wisdom of living life. I would listen to their stories before judging them .

Those of us in the closed era didn't know what our bmoms were or were not but i was brought up with mom being mom and do continue to be "loyal" as any daughter would whose had a good realtionship with her mom.

I beleive that we s adoptees need to focus on the whole picture , what we have lost andwhat wehave gained....and how it makes us who we are. I do not beleive that its a competion because that only mutes the process of finding our identity. Its ok to just be who YOU are, not what others say you are.

[Amandak249]

Woah, woah woah. You misunderstood what I was saying. Clarification time.

Also....you mentioned your parents being very educated....thats great...but people....bmoms included... on this board also are very educated they come from a place of intelligance along with the wisdom of living life. I would listen to their stories before judging them .

When I mentioned that my parents were educated, I meant only in the realm of psychiatry, as they are both psychiatrists. I pointed that out ONLY to say that perfectly knowledgeable people are falling for the "adoption stereotypes" and people who SHOULD, in theory, know better are just as affected as everyone else. It surprised me that my parents, who are usually so impartial and level headed with their emotions, would discount my birthmother throughout my life. It's so out of their characters! My parents where very open about my adoption, and have encouraged me even throughout reunion and all of the struggles it brings. This is the only area where we don't see eye to eye. I was making a point that these stigmas, these preconceived notions about adoption and the roles of each person involved, can affect EVERYONE, regardless of their roles and their personalities. No judgment intended, none whatsoever. I love that the people on these forums " see whats up", and refuse to be molded into what people would normally consider " the roles of the triad." It's a shame not everyone can see it the way many people here see it.

One thing I will ask you ...you say your parents discounted your bio and bfather discounted your nurture. When is it going tobe for YOU to decide what is true and what isn't.......I suspect that the parents are trying to make themselves more important...and none of that is true

I suspect it is hard for either set of my parents to give the other set much credit. Just a reality of my adoption. Nothing that is set in stone, or that I suspect is uniform in the adoption world. My parents believe that I am who I am because of how they've raised me, and that biology plays only a small part. My birthfamily , especially my birthfather, had trouble over the years accepting his boundaries as my birthfather, and as a beloved person in my life, and not as my primary father and decision maker. I saw him as my father, but not in the same sense that he saw me as his daughter.

The truth is we are both...your bmom had a personaility before drug addication...she was somebody she had traits and talents that you may have inherited, unfortuanltly the diesease of addication got the best of her so its hard to see what her talents may have been. Wedo inherite mannerism, likes, dislikes sometimes from our bparents and family.

My birthmother has a beautiful personality. She is bubbly and sweet and caring and emotional. I have spent time with her over the years. I've spoken to her for hours on the telephone, and I've spent days with her in person. When she is not under the influence, which unfortunately is not very often, she is an amazing person. I am positive, though, that due to her addictions she could not have been a good mother to me, as she has shown with all of the children she attempted to parent. I love her for what she is and who she is in my life, but she's not quite " mom." She's something else entirely, someone who gave me my face and my heart and my talents and my inherited traits. She loves me and I know she does. I love her too, and she considers me her daughter, but it is hard for me to consider her a mother in the same way.

.I have read about it a lot on these forums. so we really are a sum of our parents(both birth and bio) parts and feel that you should respect that but most importanly your parents should respect that.

When you discount bmoms as "just" you are also discouting the children she had, including yourself. This is where the lesson in compassion comes into play.

Agreed.

I beleive that we s adoptees need to focus on the whole picture , what we have lost andwhat wehave gained....and how it makes us who we are.

I struggle to do that everyday. I hope one day to figure it out- to understand where everyone fits into my life, and keep them neatly where they belong. I suspect that this will never happen, as roles in adoption are often undefinable- capable of being categorized only by a feeling.





Hope I've made things a bit clearer.

[OakShannon]

Originally Posted by Dickons

I too am disturbed, saddened and angry by the blurring of the lines between mothers from the closed era and those mothers of today whose children removed by the state for abuse that has been proven...That blurring should be something we all fight against vigorously, there is no commonality whatsoever between being forced (because society ensured there were NO OPTIONS) to sign papers taking away a mothers right to raise her child simply because she has been judged by society as unfit because she is not married. . .Again, there is no commonality whatsoever with mothers whose children have been removed by the state for abuse that has been proven. For those mothers we should have compassion but they are not anywhere close to being true mothers who have lived with and continue to live with for their entire lives the pain and anger of losing a child to adoption because they had no other option.

I think it was Ravensong who posted something about this recently on another thread. The stereotypes about birthmothers - that they didn't love their children, gave them away, were unstable, unfit to be parents - are dehumanizing and cause a great deal of pain. Placing a child for adoption, however it happens, and having that child removed from your care by the state are two very different things and I agree that it is wrong to blur that line.

But . . . My son's birthmom is very real. She is part of him and he a part of her. I think we have to have enough compassion to go around, because life can be ****ably hard sometimes. I know that "S's" life is harder than mine has ever been or is ever likely to be. And we are still human, still have value, even with our mistakes and struggles. My son was taken from his mother for good reasons. But the idea that this means she cannot be a "true" mother who grieves is sad to me. And I think she cannot be diminished without diminishing a part of my son as well. His story does not have a pretty beginning and I can't excuse everything his birthmother has done. And yet . . .

David has the most beautiful, ebony eyes I have ever seen. He has a gap toothed smile and a sturdy build and funny toes that overlap each other like teeth in a too-small mouth. He loves music and will sit rapt listening to it. He wakes smiling and dancing in his crib. He is a daredevil who never walks when he can run.

He got none of this from me. Some other parent bequeathed these things to him. He is beautiful and a wonder and two very real, very human, and yes, very fallible people created him. What they will mean for him is something only he will be able to decide. But whatever else is true, I am deeply and forever grateful for what they gave him. I could never see them as anything less than "real."

[In_limbo_for_now]

I won't presume to speek for anyone but me, nor am I accusing anyone of doing so. I am reading and posting in hopes that I can save my children from some of lifes pain.
I don't ever want my children to love only us their aparents. I hope to teach them that it is ok to love more then one Mom and Dad. I grew up in a home that had its ups and downs. The bad times were leagally and morally bad but there were good times (not great but good). My father was abusive and yet a loving compassionate man. He loves me and I him tho not without some qualifiers. Our to be childrens' story is not as "5 o'clock news" bad as my childhood was but there are reasons that their BP are not parenting them. No matter what they did their kids will still love them in some way. The unconditional love a child has for a parent is not always logical but it is there. I hope to help my kids grow from their loss into people their parents both birth and adopted will be proud of.

[dpen6]

Amanda,

Very well said and I stand clarified!

[Janeytwo]

Dickons

I will never meet her, get to know her, be hugged by her or talk to her because I was too late...that is my regret and one I will take to my grave. That I was not strong enough, smart enough, or vocal enough to find her before she died and neither was she...that is tragic

((( Dickons ))) Yes it is tragic my very very dear friend. Yes it is.

You - like so many of us on all 3 sides - are a victim of the Closed Era and its brutality of silence.

This thing that was done to us - not simply to birthmothers but to adoptees and adoptive parents as well - the lies, the denial we were asked to endure and participate in. We are all victims of the collusion of those with the power to make the rules.

And there is no other word for it but heartbreaking. And some of us - like you and Kdecrow and others who arrived too late to mend those breaks? In my humble opinion? You suffered the worst outcome of all. (Sadness inserted here). I wish there was some way to change it.


Much peace to you today - and everyday thereafter.