[RavenSong]

Lately I've been thinking about something that one of our members brought up several months ago. In one of her posts, our dear Jackie said that she believed that those of us who had relinquished our babies had chosen between lifetimes to do this, in order to learn an important lesson in life...think reincarnation. I can't remember her exact words, but I know that it just felt "right" to me when I read them.

My question to all birth/first mothers, do you think it's possible that we "choose" to go on this particular journey before we are even born? If so, what have you learned so far? Have you learned a major life lesson? How has relinquishment affected you deep down inside? How has it changed you? Have you learned anything in particular that most people aren't aware of? Something that you wouldn't have learned unless you were separated from your child? Does grief and tremendous loss teach us as human beings? Does it have the potential to make us grow as people?

I guess I'm feeling kind of mystical today...

[quantum]

My initial thought is that I wish no one had to go through THAT to learn any lessons.

I guess it's made me more empathetic to a lot more people. A friend of mine is struggling with infertility and I think in some weird way I can relate to it since she's lost the children she's not been able to have, and I relate that to the years I've missed with my son.

I'm going to think some more on this! Thank you Raven sweetie!

[RavenSong]

Quantum, bless your soul for responding to my question. I was afraid after I posted it that our birth/firstmom sisters would avoid it like the plague.

I'm still trying to gather my own thoughts about this question. It has some pretty heavy implications in terms of reincarnation and life goals.

One of the things that I think I've gained from surrendering my child to adoption is that as an adult I've been able to reach people who are really hurting inside. I have more empathy, more compassion for my fellow human beings. It's kinda strange, but no matter where I go in life, it seems that adoptees who are in emotional pain or distress seem to find me. Sometimes it's almost eerie. When I moved up here to the Sierra mountains, I thought that wouldn't happen anymore. After all, I live in a tiny hamlet that boasts maybe 700 or 800 people in all. But within the first few years of living here in the mountains, I had five adoptees reach out to me...none of them even knew I was a birthmother when they first met me. I like to think that I've helped them...at least I hope I have.

I know I've learned how to unconditionally love my friends and relatives. I think a lot of that is directly related to my son's adoption.

The relinquishment has made me strong as hell, I think, in terms of not giving into other people anymore. I trust my own instincts now, rather than other people's opinions. I am no longer afraid of standing up for myself or for my loved ones.

I treasure my nephews and nieces in a way that I don't think would have happened if I hadn't given their cousin up for adoption.

I never was able to have more children... I have learned how we can never foretell our own futures. Those promises that the social workers made back in those years were "pie in the sky" in terms of what would happen in my life. I've learned that sometimes we only have one chance...

I've learned that, sometimes, some type of spiritual bond occurs between mother and child...one that doesn't ever die.

I've learned that I need to listen to my own gut-level instincts, not to the voices of other people who think they know best.

I've learned that, yes, teenagers do know what love is all about. I've learned that sometimes love never dies...

[-maggie]

Hey Raven!

For years I always believed that dd was always meant to be with her aparents. I believed that was the plan before I was pregnant with her. She was their baby, not mine. But now, I wonder if that thought was just my teenage mind trying to justify everything..... Maybe my journey was destined before I was born. I just don't know.

Life Lessons? I think I have learned the importance of all the little things in life. I am a better mom. I hate to admit it, but I don't think I would of been without the adoption. The adoption made me see the world differently. It changed me. I was not the same person after.... I'm not sure how to explain it... I'll think about this one some more!

[cetalley]

Raven, I am not sure about pre-destine..reincarnation(sp?)...but I am fairly certain RELINQUISHING my twins, made me more callous, uncaring towards someone elses issues, and over-all, cold and somewhat callous. On many other levels though I have grown! I am able to have heartfelt compassion for certain people(elderly,children,poor,)and anger that is set off instantly by certain people(financially secure, spoiled, unsocialable snots,hollier than thou attitudes)but especially zero tolerance for people whom tell you something and do not follow through! I have a great more deal of overall mistrust,and have no qualms about telling someone that shows direspect to those I love more than life! I say this, wondering did relinquishing my twins do this to me?...I can say without a doubt yes! I must say though, that my relinquishing, was not the norm..in the way of which it was done...so I may not be suitable to even answere this. My first husband, had only 1 leg, since accident took his leg at 19 yrs.old...he was never the same. On many levels I did not understand why he held so many issues in feeling less than whole. However now that I have lost my twins...I do see how the loss of his leg could and did change him forever...how could it not??...do not get me wrong..he was a wonderful Dad to my now 29 yr old..the best....but he never felt like other men,whom felt like they could provide and protect their family...he felt he could not. I felt like I provided and was/am a great Mom to my 29 yr old....but failed with my twins and will always feel as I am" missing a part of my body"....therefore, by choosing to NEVER have another child...I could ensure that I would never have the chance to hurt a child after failing to provide and protect my twins!...Does anything I have just said make sense or am I just not able to explain what relinquishing has done to me. It comes across sounding as if I am this bitter ole bag...I really am not. I love my life, my family, my home, being a wife, mom, and NaNa to 2 wonderful grandbabies.....I am compassionate to a fault, and do kind deeds that those I do them for never know. I have forgiven all that have hurt me, and enjoy my every day that GOD gives me.....BUT I am NOT WHOLE!

[cetalley]

I just felt I should clarify...I hold no ONE responsible for my journey! I do not hold the twins parents in any way responsible....how can I ? I do not have the honor of knowing them. I am the one whom was stupid and scared at 25 yrs old. Iam the one WAS naive! I do not hold expectations that IF I get to know of my twins...that THEY will make me WHOLE once again...for I do not expect that nor want that. I will be whole in the way of knowing what I DID was not for nothing...if I can just see them and see in their eyes they are happy, healthy, and secure in being compassionate and loving towards their parents! Then and only then can I allow my self inflicted pain of not feeling whole ...to be buried...where it belongs...with my first husband and his leg, that left him not whole! My father used to say we are all placed here for a short time...and for a specific reason...My son, tells me that reson is to be HIS Mom....maybe...and maybe the reason was to allow another woman to become a MOM! Blessings to all...even those who are re-incarnated!

[sstuart]

I do not know if I believe in reincarnation. I do know that I believe that there is a time for everyone to die. I think that there are many who live and you think OMG how did they survive, when someone else trips on the front step and dies! I sometimes wonder if I chose this journey, WHY did I chose that? Was I given another horrible choice to make?? Also I was burned when I was 20. 2nd and 3rd degree burns and was in the hospital for 6 weeks and not able to walk for 3 months. I guess this is why I struggle with reincarnation. Why did I choose what I have had happen in my life??

I have to agree with Cetalley. I tend to be sarcastic and cold at times. But I have grown I have learned, How do we not?

Interesting question.

[SoniaRose]

I am an adoptee, but I am responding because I read a lot of "New Age"/metaphysical books. I was raised a Catholic, but now believe in reincarnation. I also have read in several books that we do choose our path in each life before we incarnate, and that we often share lives with the same souls to work out our karma. The husband in one life could have been a brother or sister in another, etc. We live each life to learn our lessons and progress spiritually.

Based on my readings, I also believe that I was born to be the child of my aparents (although they first saw me when I was 9 months old), and I must have a karmic relationship with my afamily as well. Although many aspects or our lives are predetermined, we have free will on how we fulfill our destiny. Anyway, my belief system works for me and gives me comfort. I once read that all religions and belief systems are facets of the one large diamond that is God -- even atheists go to "heaven".

Yes, I think that all adoptees and bparents are learning life lessons from their experiences. I have read repeatedly that everything happens for a reason -- even the death of a child turns into a learning lesson for the parent. It's a way of answering that unanswerable question: why do bad things happen to good people? Everything that happens is a part of God's plan for us, and we often choose a difficult path so we can learn and progress more.

Anyway, my beliefs help me get through the day.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

My question to all birth/first mothers, do you think it's possible that we "choose" to go on this particular journey before we are even born?

Pardon me, but I think this is a big bunch of Hooey. It is a convenient way to blame yourself, or for others to blame the victim. For some it may be comforting. Instead of being a hot to trot 23 year old (which I was) I can say I chose this painful path to learn something. I just don't buy it.

Originally Posted by RavenSong

If so, what have you learned so far? Have you learned a major life lesson? How has relinquishment affected you deep down inside? How has it changed you? Have you learned anything in particular that most people aren't aware of? Something that you wouldn't have learned unless you were separated from your child? Does grief and tremendous loss teach us as human beings? Does it have the potential to make us grow as people?

It does help some people grow, others it destroys. I think it depends on the person. I think there are people out there who are naturally resilient and will find meaning in their hardships, whatever those hardships might be. I often wonder where my inspiration to write would have lead me had I not given birth and relinquished my son. I have no doubt that I would have written something, I have always been a writer.

On the other hand I have seen it destroy people. The trauma, the heartache is too much and they look to sex, substances, and in some cases, death to ease the pain. I do not see them choosing anything. They are overwhelmed and unable to cope.

I have also seen people live half lives. Not allowing themselves to get that close to anyone, ever again... even subsequent children. Mired in secrets, cutting off, denying a part of who they are because it is too painful to face it.

I have worked with hundreds of birthmoms. I have seen them manipulated by "professionals" who have a feeding frenzy on their personal crisis. I have witnessed the depths of their shame and guilt and how it has negatively effected their lives. I have seen too much to believe that anyone would choose this, whether in the here and now, or in some other realm.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Raven!! Hey All!

My question to all birth/first mothers, do you think it's possible that we "choose" to go on this particular journey before we are even born? If so, what have you learned so far?

Raven - thanks for this great thread!! I am hoping that our resident minister and our resident therapist will jump in to give us their esteemed responses to this. That would be cool!!

Did I choose this path before I came here? Hmmm....I don't know much about religion. My understanding of God only comes through Program and Program loosely teaches that God sends us wherever we need to go in order to come back to Him.

I'm not sure that answers the question, but it's the only response I felt was right for me.

And yes, I am learning. Learning that I would've been far better off if I'd turned and stared down my grief, then to have bricked it up for so many years.

I am learning that there is consequence - real and painful consequence - to action. But that is true for everyone and everything.

I am learning that I'm tired of being judged by those who haven't walked in my shoes. If the self-righteous want a justification for the relinquishment of my children? Fine. They'd just better make dang sure they have an explanation waiting in the wings as regards their own BS. Because I'm going to be demanding one. And there's no one out there without some skeleton moldering in the closet.

Elvis left the building eons ago, you know?


One other thing. For some months now there has been a song I have listened to that I feel most represents adoption (my opinion only of course). I am certain that the song was never meant for my purpose, but just the same I thought I would like to share it with you and anyone else who would care to listen. It's my way of saying thanks for being here. I sure have needed everyone.

I've typed the lyrics below - left out one stanza (just in case anyone blogs the song and notices that.)

Anyhoo, I think the lyrics pseak for themselves. Especially the refrain which often reminds me of the adoptees in here whose bparents have run from them and left them hurting. The bolded section I thought really says what I feel as a birthmother and also what I feel it must be like for adoptive parents who seem to live under constant scrutiny from all the high-and-mighty jerks out there.

Society makes me sick.

Anyway, if you have the time go to Rhapsody.com and type in the band The English Beat. The song is called "Save it for Later". The song should be free. Rhapsody allowed I believe for 21 free downloads a month.

Anyhooo....kick out the jam sisters and brothers!!

:-) Enjoy!!!

Lots of love and hugs to all!



SAVE IT FOR LATER:

Two dozen other dirty lovers
Must be a sucker for it
Cry, Cry, but I don't need my mother
Just hold my hand while I come to a decision on it

Sooner or later your legs give way, you hit the ground
Save it for later don't run away and let me down
Sooner or later you hit the deck, you get found out
Save it for later don't run away and let me down
You let me down

Two dozen other stupid reasons
Why we should suffer for this
Don't bother trying to explain them
Just hold my hand while I come to a decision on it

Sooner or later your legs give way, you hit the ground
Save it for later don't run away and let me down
Sooner or later you hit the deck, you get found out
Save it for later don't run away and let me down
You let me down

[SoniaRose]

Bromanchick,
In my viewpoint, choosing the circumstances of our life before we're born has absolutely nothing to do with blame -- I don't understand who would be blaming whom? Everything we do we do under God -- do we blame God for anything? Everything happens for a reason; there is no such thing as an accident or a coincidence.

Yes, life is full of hardships, and many of us don't deal with it very well -- but hopefully we learn from everything we experience, both the good and the bad. Life is a schoolroom, and we're here to learn our lessons. We all struggle through day by day and hope we're doing the right thing.

Anyway, my little "New Age" library helps me understand the purpose of life. As long as we are trying to make sense of the senseless, we are progressing.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Brenda!!

I think there are people out there who are naturally resilient and will find meaning in their hardships, whatever those hardships might be.

And, God, how I hope to be one of them!!!

I do not want it written on my tombstone, "She lived in darkness."

Ugh!!!


Much hugs to ya today!!

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by SoniaRose

Bromanchick,
In my viewpoint, choosing the circumstances of our life before we're born has absolutely nothing to do with blame -- I don't understand who would be blaming whom? Everything we do we do under God -- do we blame God for anything? Everything happens for a reason; there is no such thing as an accident or a coincidence.

Yes, life is full of hardships, and many of us don't deal with it very well -- but hopefully we learn from everything we experience, both the good and the bad. Life is a schoolroom, and we're here to learn our lessons. We all struggle through day by day and hope we're doing the right thing.

Anyway, my little "New Age" library helps me understand the purpose of life. As long as we are trying to make sense of the senseless, we are progressing.

Because first parents get blamed for a lot. We get blamed for our own pain.

It isn't the same as being adopted, and I can testify to that because I am both. Crappy things get said about adopted people, but we don't get blamed for our hurt.

First parents get blamed not only for their own hurt but, if their children hurt, that hurt too. There is more blame in being a first mom than you can dream of.

[belleinblue1978]

Raven,

I don't believe in pre-destiny. I don't believe that my birth was meant to cause the trauma that it did to M and I don't believe that Kiddo's birth was meant to cause the trauma that it did to me. We weren't "meant" to be with the families we were, we weren't grown in another woman's body, only to be handed off. Sorry, can't live with that I idea. I can't live with the idea that I was born only cause my first mom so much pain that she can't even write me a letter, admit that I was born, and has destroyed relationship after relationship since my birth. I can't be responsible for that and if my being born was that life path for her, then..... nope, I won't be responsible and my son isn't responsible for where I am.

I have learned and changed since kiddo was born, but adoption has changed me profoundly since I was born, so what is being a first mom and what is being adopted?

I've learned that I am so strong that I can overcome anything.

I've learned that I can cope with rejection and live through it.

I've learned that it is ok to be angry and that I don't have to love everyone. I may have to deal with them, but that is all I have to.

I've learned how to stand up for myself and my heart. I can say enough is enough now.

I've learned how to say "you won't talk about me like that."

I am the sum total of my experiences though and adoption isn't my only experience, although it is a pretty large part of my life, even larger than most of yours I'm betting.

I don't think first mom's are being taught a life lesson though. I don't think we're the ones that need it a lot of times because, most of us, at least the women I know here, hold ourselves to some pretty high standards anyway, and obviously always have.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by SoniaRose

Bromanchick,
In my viewpoint, choosing the circumstances of our life before we're born has absolutely nothing to do with blame -- I don't understand who would be blaming whom? Everything we do we do under God -- do we blame God for anything? Everything happens for a reason; there is no such thing as an accident or a coincidence.

See, I am a believer in free will. I believe that God gives us a brain and a heart and sits back and watches what we do with them. I do not believe in pre-destination or that God (or that we pre-birth) have had our lives mapped out for us.

My thoughts on blame are this..... If we, as birthmothers, chose the path that leads to adoption,than we need to believe that we are responsible for everything that happens surrounding the adoption. So those birthmoms who have been manipulated into placement by unscrupulous professionals, or choose adoptive parents who abuse their kids or cut them off, or who may even conceived their children by rape, somehow planned it all so they could learn some kind of lesson. Given this, the unscrupulous professionals, or abusive adoptive parents, or the rapist are just a part of the grand plan. And it is because of this I do not believe that somehow we chose this path before we were born so we can learn a lesson. Nor do I believe that God deliberately puts us in these kinds of situations, nor do I believe that S/he puts these people in our lives so we can learn a lesson. The God I know and lovewants what is best for us, does not want to see us in pain and wants to see us use the gifts S/he gave us in a productive, fully loving way.

I think we have a basic difference in our theologies.