[SoniaRose]

Sorry if I offended. Yes, I understand how bmoms can be blamed by others -- thanks for pointing that out for me. Of course, to "blame" someone is never correct.

Actually, it makes no real difference whether or not we believe that we choose our path. But I think we all agree that everyone of us needs to learn from our experiences. And we're here on these forums to learn from each other.

I have found the answers to life that resonate with me -- I think we all learn from different sources -- and that's the way it should be.

[Janeytwo]

Hey guys!

Very interesting thread!!

On the blame thing. (And not directed at you SoniaRose - honest) (hugs to ya)

I have reached the point today (and I mean this) that I will no longer accept it. To those who want to stand on the sidelines holding their placards and pointing their finger? My name's Paul - it's 'tween y'all.

It's not a requirement of my job. Simply because I relinquished two children - whom I love with everything in me - well that does not mean that I have to do "life" under some self-righteous person's sentence. And I'm fairly certain that those who judge loudest have committed some social faux pas. It's always the big-mouths who have.

So...whoever wants to blame me....blame me all you want. (Evil grin attached here). Then go suck an egg. It'd be more productive for you because I ain't listenin' no more.

Hugs everyone!! :-)


Now when I talk to God
I knew He'd understand
He said stick by Me
I'll be your Guiding Hand
Don't ask Me what I think of you
I might not give the answer that you want Me to
Lindsay Buckingham

[belleinblue1978]

Sonia,

Not offended, just pointing out how blame is a very real thing for first moms.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by bromanchik

Pardon me, but I think this is a big bunch of Hooey. It is a convenient way to blame yourself, or for others to blame the victim. For some it may be comforting. Instead of being a hot to trot 23 year old (which I was) I can say I chose this painful path to learn something. I just don't buy it.

I don't see it as a convenient way to blame myself, Brenda. I do see it, perhaps, as a way to take control of my own life. I don't know...it's just an idea that I've been playing with in my mind lately. I certainly didn't intend to imply that anyone is to blame.

As far as this notion being a bunch of "hooey," I guess a lot of the Western world would agree with you. But the Eastern religions tend to believe in reincarnation and choosing one's own spiritual paths.

I like what SoniaRose said: It's a way of answering that unanswerable question: why do bad things happen to good people? Everything that happens is a part of God's plan for us, and we often choose a difficult path so we can learn and progress more." This is pretty much what Jackie was saying on that thread several months ago that I was thinking of earlier today...that sometimes we choose difficult paths in order to progress spiritually.

I'm a Roman Catholic (raised Methodist, converted as an adult), yet I do have a lot of affinity for Eastern philosophies. I've known too many small children who have dreams about previous lifetimes, myself included. My mom told me once that I really freaked her out when I was a small kid. Evidently I had recurring nightmares for several years about being a medic in some long-ago war. The dream would always end the same way: I am running toward a foxhole to reach a wounded soldier, when a huge explosion occurs. I get thrown up in the air, and then suddenly, I'm looking down on myself in that foxhole, and everything goes hazy...

Anyway, I digress. I just want to make sure that everyone here realizes that I'm not trying to blame anyone for being put into the position of relinquishing their child. I just thought it would be an interesting subject to explore...

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by -maggie

For years I always believed that dd was always meant to be with her aparents. I believed that was the plan before I was pregnant with her. She was their baby, not mine. But now, I wonder if that thought was just my teenage mind trying to justify everything..... Maybe my journey was destined before I was born. I just don't know.

Maggie, I know what you mean. I did the same thing in my mind when I carried my son. I didn't make the relinquishment decision until I was seven months pregnant. Until that point, I felt incredibly bonded with my baby. And then I started the hard part of detaching from him while he was still in the womb. I remember my teenage mind telling myself that he really belonged to his future adoptive parents in some weird spiritual way. When I look back on the whole thing 37 years later, I'm kind of inclined to think that it was just a way to mentally protect myself from what was coming. BTW, I still felt bonded to my little guy the last two months of my pregnancy, but I felt incredibly guilty for feeling this way. I remember a few weeks before he was born, my aunt walked into the room and caught me rubbing my abdomen and talking to him. I felt like I had been busted doing something wrong, for pete's sake.

To be honest, this type of thinking ended up with me getting pretty angry with God. I couldn't figure out at 17 years of age why He didn't just let DS's amom conceive her own child and let me have mine. It seemed kind of cruel to me at the time. Of course, I don't feel that way anymore. But I did think for a number of years that God didn't give a hoot about me.

Originally Posted by -maggie

Life Lessons? I think I have learned the importance of all the little things in life. I am a better mom. I hate to admit it, but I don't think I would of been without the adoption. The adoption made me see the world differently. It changed me. I was not the same person after.... I'm not sure how to explain it... I'll think about this one some more!

My son's birthfather made the same comment to me years ago, that losing his firstborn son to adoption had a very direct effect in how he parented his future children. The year after our son was born, he got married and eventually had three more children. And he was an absolutely fantastic father to those kids...they adored him. He told me once during those years that losing DS gave him a "wakeup call", that he never took any of his children for granted. Unfortunately, he passed away when they were teenagers. But when I heard those kids give eulogies for their dad at the funeral, I was so impressed with the deep relationship he had had with them.

Maggie, I know what you mean about adoption changing you. I know it changed me in many ways. Although adoption doesn't define me as a person, the changes I went through after relinquishing my child profoundly changed the person I became in adulthood, if that makes any sense.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I certainly didn't intend to imply that anyone is to blame.

I am not saying you are. I am saying that it's an easy way for others to blame us. As in "She chose this path before she was born. I am just playing my part in her journey."

Originally Posted by RavenSong

As far as this notion being a bunch of "hooey," I guess a lot of the Western world would agree with you. But the Eastern religions tend to believe in reincarnation and choosing one's own spiritual paths.

Like I said, it's a difference in theology.

Originally Posted by RavenSong

I like what SoniaRose said: [i]It's a way of answering that unanswerable question: why do bad things happen to good people?

Like I said, I am a believer in free will. I believe that the things that happen to us, and happen to others, are because of the choices that we and others made. I have seen to many innocents hurt by the choices others have made to believe that they chose this for themselves. (I am a therapist that works primarily with traumatized children and adults.)

I cannot believe in a God that orchestrates the kind of abuse and pain I have been witness to just so that someone can learn a life lesson. That is not the God I know and love.

[RavenSong]

I wish I could think of something clever to say, but I'm sitting here with writer's block. I didn't start this thread to get into a theological debate. Heck, I'm not even sure what I really think about this subject. I just thought it was an interesting idea to think about and discuss.

Mainly I started the thread because so many people have been complaining lately that there aren't enough threads in the birthmothers' side of the forum. So I thought I'd try a subject where we didn't all have to feel crummy.

If anybody out there has any ideas on some interesting thread subjects, you can send them to me if you don't want to start a thread yourself.

I just wanted to get the birthmom boards jump-started after our holiday lull... But I guess I picked the wrong subject. Oh, well, at least I tried something different.

[belleinblue1978]

Raven, I think it is a good topic.

Makes a person think.

We could talk about how I fixed my dryer this morning.

[Janeytwo]

Actually, I think this is a very interesting thread.

And of course it proves that each of us sees through our experience.

It seems to me that there's actually two different subjects going on in this one thread. Blame and God. LOL! It's funny how we homosapiens tend to meld those two together! Right now, I can picture that 19-year-old God that I know (sorry - but that's how I see Him). He's hunkered over the engine of his 440 Roadrunner, doing some fine-tuning and He's taking in all our human debates and shaking His head and saying, "Janey, you people STILL don't get it do ya?"



So - on to blame. I had thought that there was difference between the words "blame" and "responsibility" so I looked them up on Wikipedia. Apparently, I was wrong. I've stumbled upon a sort of 'cause and effect' argument. Neat!! Below is the webpage (typed in blue just below this paragraph) that I came across on Wikipedia. If you guys get a chance, read it. It's fascinating, presenting various therories of blame and responsbility as they are seen through the great philosphers. Though I'm not sure I've settled any arguments....I think I've only opened a bigger can of worms! But then that's what philosphy is supposed to do right?

Blame - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On the God thing, God's a huge issue. I'm becoming more convinced though - through talking with more learned people - and through reading, that blame is a human sport and not one God is playing. Does that make any sense?

AA, AlAnon, NA - if you hang around those long enough you start to unlearn what society has taught. The rules morph; a person finds they have a hard time abiding with the status quo's idea of what forgiveness is and what it isn't. Of who God is and who He/She/It isn't.

God becomes more of an issue of our responsbility to ourselves and others as far as changing in order to live as more productive people. A person finally can live in peace with themselves.

Blame falls by the wayside because it brings with it guilt and shame. I.e., a person cannot hope to change if they're constantly telling themselves they're scum.

Also Program doesn't buy into that because that's an excuse for a person to stay stuck in who they are. I.e., "People think I'm slime anyway - so I might as well be slime and not bother."

I hope that all made sense.

Good stuff!!

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by belleinblue1978

Raven, I think it is a good topic.

Makes a person think.

We could talk about how I fixed my dryer this morning.

LOL, Belle, you always bring a smile to my face. So, you fixed your own dryer?? I am envious of you, my friend. How did you know how to repair it? Did you use one of those handyman books? I tried to fix my Sony television last year, and the darn thing blew up in my face.

Yeah, I thought this subject was an interesting one. I remember when I first read Jackie's thoughts on the subject several months ago... I thought about it for days and days. It just kind of tripped me out, I guess.

I just didn't realize the possible blame factor that could be attributed to choosing our own spiritual paths throughout different lifetimes. I'll have to give the whole subject some more thought today...

Or else I'll look around my house and see if there's anything I can repair. You've inspired me, kiddo!!

[belleinblue1978]

It was easy, I just had to take the back off and then take off the lint thingy majig (that is the technical term) and clean out the vent hose.

I got a pink tool kit for Christmas. My next big project is my back bedroom. I'm going to lay laminate floor in there and stuff. That won't be for awhile though.

[julie23]

raven.... it's a good topic. you know anytime you post something it's open for debate... and the strangest bits of the post can be debated... things you don't imagine when you first put the words out there.... you know?

My question to all birth/first mothers, do you think it's possible that we "choose" to go on this particular journey before we are even born? If so, what have you learned so far? Have you learned a major life lesson? How has relinquishment affected you deep down inside? How has it changed you? Have you learned anything in particular that most people aren't aware of? Something that you wouldn't have learned unless you were separated from your child? Does grief and tremendous loss teach us as human beings? Does it have the potential to make us grow as people?

i don't know a thing about the philosophy of reincarnation.... but if i was somewhere "between lives"... and i had any choice in the path i took..... i suppose it would be easier for me to imagine that i would pick certain things to learn in my next life but probably not pick the journey to learn it.... that the actual events would not be chosen.... because i can't imagine actually choosing to be separated from my child...... but i could imagine deciding to learn about grief..... and then the events that unfold teach me those lessons.... you know?

i have learned huge major life lessons.... just huge. some good... some bad.

i'm a better mother to my raised children than i would have been without relinquishing... i'm sure of that.

i'm a tremendously compassionate human being....

when one feels the pain of relinquishing, how can we not be forever changed?

when a mother is separated from her baby.... how can that not deeply and profoundly affect her for the rest of her life?

i learned not to trust.... i learned that betrayal happens once... and no one gets a second chance... i learned self-protection at all costs.... i learned to protect my children with a vengeance... i learned to protect my "motherhood" ....

i learned that love is all sacrificing and hurts like heck.... and then, i unlearned that lesson..... and discovered that love doesn't have to be giving up yourself.... that love doesn't have to hurt.....

i learned how to live with constant pain..... and i have unlearned that lesson.... i learned how amazing it feels to live without bone crushing, grinding pain inside of you from the minute you open your eyes.... until your head hits the pillow at night....

i learned so many lessons.... but the biggest part of relinquishing.... has been DISCOVERING the lessons i learned.... and then unlearning them.... at least some of them.... some will stick with me forever.... others i will unlearn....

i will unlearn the lessons that hurt me.... and i will be free of it.

[CalamityJane]

I have read this thread several times and I keep coming back to this:

If I were expected to learn a lesson, is that lesson that I am not a good enough mother to raise my child? Or is it that family isn't really there to support you in your time of greatest need?

With the recent trend of single parent adoption, I wonder how agencies are handling the "your child deserves two parents" stuff, which used to be the biggest motivator for single mothers placing their children.

If I learned anything from the adoption experience, I learned that those that are there to "help" often aren't there to help you. They are there to help those writing checks.

I have learned that I am adult enough to make a very adult decision, but not adult enough to raise my child.

I have learned that I am responsible, loving and caring, by choosing adoption for my child, that is, until I give birth. Once I'd given birth, the responsible, loving and caring portions of me vacate the premises, with the baby I guess. I've now become the scary stroller stalking women who could never love a child she made an adoption plan for, much less be responsible, loving and caring enough to respect boundaries.

I've learned that, since placing my child for adoption, I will never be viewed as someone who is capable of being a parent by some in the adoption community.

I have learned that sharing my frustrations about my experience makes me a bitter person. I've learned that the same does not hold true for adoptive parents.

I've learned a number of 'life lessons' from relinquishment..but mostly, just that I am a means to an ends. The disposable side of the triad.

Oh, and that I'm bitter.

[RavenSong]

Okay, I have to share this thought with you guys. I was sitting here just now, thinking about this topic. And it dawned on me that maybe I'm more open to the possibility of choosing our own life's journey in between lifetimes because of my childhood history.

I was physically and emotionally abused when I was a little kid. My mom was just too darn young, too stressed out, and too overwhelmed when my dad left her. So she took it out on me.

I struggled for years in both childhood and adulthood about why the abuse had happened. I tried seeing things through her eyes. The one thing I never did was blame God for it. If anything, I probably just thought I deserved it, much like most abused kids think.

When I got older and started thinking about karma and reincarnation and spiritual journeys, I think I empowered myself by deciding that I had somehow picked this journey with my mom. In no way did I blame myself for the abuse that occurred, but I did consider that perhaps I went thru it for some type of human advancement, if you follow my drift.

So when I read Jackie's comments several months ago, it was easy for me to nod my head and agree with her. I'd already come to a similar conclusion about my own childhood experiences. Does that make any sense? I probably should go grab another cup of coffee...it's awfully early here.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by julie23

i don't know a thing about the philosophy of reincarnation.... but if i was somewhere "between lives"... and i had any choice in the path i took..... i suppose it would be easier for me to imagine that i would pick certain things to learn in my next life but probably not pick the journey to learn it.... that the actual events would not be chosen.... because i can't imagine actually choosing to be separated from my child...... but i could imagine deciding to learn about grief..... and then the events that unfold teach me those lessons.... you know?

Julie, I am so glad you found your way to this thread. I had a hunch that you'd have something good to say. I love what you wrote in the paragraph above. That is exactly what I've been thinking for the past day or so...that we don't pick the actual events that will happen in our lives. Rather we choose what lessons we wish to learn. Things like grief, compassion, unconditional love, etc.

I don't think that we sit there and say, "Gee, I think I want to learn how it feels to relinquish my child." But I can envision saying something along the lines of, "I'd like to learn about unconditional love and what that really means."

Originally Posted by julie23

i learned so many lessons.... but the biggest part of relinquishing.... has been DISCOVERING the lessons i learned.... and then unlearning them.... at least some of them.... some will stick with me forever.... others i will unlearn....

i will unlearn the lessons that hurt me.... and i will be free of it.

Wow, Julie, I have a lot to learn from you. What you've said about "unlearning" some of the lessons learned from relinquishment really resonates with me. Thanks for sharing...