[Rylee45]

I'm just wondering WHY it's so bad to have a baby when you're not married to a point that everyone around you tells you that you should give your baby to a "deserving" couple!

The more I read the book "The Girls who went away" the more I just don't get it. It's a GREAT book for learning why things happened and how things happened and has opened my eyes to a lot of things but it still makes me so angry how people back then (and even now sometimes) would tell a girl she's not welcome to be home if she keeps her baby. She's nothing but a whore, slut or any other choice of names ALL because she had sex without being married and got pregnant.

Why is it so BAD to be a single mother??? Yes it is hard to raise children as a single mother. I've done it I know! I had 3 children I raised by myself for awhile because of a divorce. I did it! It was HARD but I did it and I don't think I was a BAD person or mother.

I was pregnant when I got divorced and I had my last child without being married. People were telling me I should give him up for adoption because I wasn't married!!! Oh my GOD thinking about that just pees me off! I would NEVER have done that a second time! The first time I didn't have any say so. The second time there was no freaking way I was going to give him up MERELY because I wasn't married!

Why do people think a child NEEDS to be given to "deserving" people in order to have a "good life"??? Sure they may have things the birth mother couldn't give them if they are given to people who adopt them but why does it matter if a child gets everything they WANT as long as they get everything they NEED??? Why isn't the birth mother "deserving" of keeping "her" child???

My mother was 5 months pregnant with me when she married my dad. I know I learned to be thrifty and not so willing to spend money like it was water and learned to appreciate the things I have because they weren't handed to me on a gold platter. I learned a lot because I wasn't given everything I wanted. I got the necessities (Food, shelter, clothes, schooling etc) and anything outside the basic necessities I had to work for. What's wrong with that????

Why does anyone think a child should have everything and be given to someone else to raise just because they will get everything they want? Why is that so important??? I just don't get it.

I'm sorry. I am just so frustrated thinking about all this. I don't understand why things were and in some cases still like that in these modern times. There are more people willing to talk a girl into giving their child up for adoption than trying to help them parent their child.

Everyone just wants to "get rid of the problem" so to speak and think the girl would be better off without her child. Why will she be better off without HER child? Why will the CHILD be better off without her? Why is giving a child up for adoption just because they won't have two parents better for them?

Sure there is a need to control one's self sexually speaking no matter how old you are. You can catch diseases too being sexually active. Not only get pregnant. But God gave everyone the bodies they have and with those bodies comes the "desires" and just because a girl enjoys those things God put in her without being married doesn't make her a slut or deserving to have her baby taken from her if she gets pregnant.

What about the guys who just get to leave when they've had sex and gotten a girl pregnant and then claim (even though the girl may have only slept with him and no one else) that he's not the father and get away with it? He should be put in an "Unwed Father's" home until the baby is born and be treated EXACTLY like the girl is so he understands what the heck he did when he walked away! The guys should be held just as responsible as the girl is!

Man I've gotten on a tangient haven't I? Sorry. I'm just really wound up right now thinking about this. I wish I weren't.

I am only on page 88 right now in the book. I don't read all that fast but I am learning a lot and glad that I'm reading it. I just wish it didn't make me so angry thinking about some of what these girls had to go through and what I had to go through too 32 years ago.

Rylee

[lovemy2boys]

You make some really valid points, Rylee...

I was born in 1972...My mom was 18 and unwed...My Dad wanted to marry her, but my mom refused, because she wanted to be asked for the right reasons, not just because she was pregnant.

She got alot of garbage from her parents, her grandparents, my dad's parents, blah blah blah..

Funny thing is that neither her nor my Dad's parents were married when they first found themselves pregnant...

Now, I'm for this part, I'm thinking outloud - not saying that this is true or not...

But you mentioned things being "swept under the rug". Is it possible that this happened, not because people think that the child should go to a deserving family, or that single moms can't possibly be good parents....but because people felt that if others found out that their child/sister/cousin whatever found herself pregnant, that it was a "poor" reflection on them? I don't know...but I'm sure that my Grandparents thought "why us" when my Mom got pregnant...grrr...

As for now? Who knows...could be the same thing. When my friend found herself unwed at 25...yes, 25 and living with her boyfriend...her parents freaked! And, yes, acted like it was a reflection on their parenting.

Like I said - just thinking outloud...

[djvj]

this made me smile, i love your post...and sticking fathers in an unwed father's home is a great idea in theory...thing would change VERY quickly if men were subjected to the same treatment women are when there is an unplanned pregnancy...

i see adoption as very much a feminist issue. the system we have in place currently would not exist if men were subjected to it...and until we as women start standing up for ourselves politically and personally i think things won't get much better.

glad you are reading the book. it's a great way to process your emotions.

[Rylee45]

Yes I do believe that a lot of the "sweeping under the rug" stuff was to do with what everyone else would think of the parents etc and how they raised their child and be a "reflection" on them.

I just still don't get the thing about why anyone would think that of a family anyway. If the family were good "Christian" people (was referenced in the book that way) and everyone already knew that why in the heck would they have "questions" about the way the child was raised in the first place? They'd have to blame the actions of the child on the child as being "rebellous" and NOT because of the way the child was raised. Does that make sense? But I know that's a lot of why girls were sent away is for the way it "looked" on the parents whose daughter "got herself pregnant" (As if she did it all by herself! good grief!)

I think people worrying about what anyone else thinks about THEM is a ridiculous reason to make a girl give her baby away! Completely RIDICULOUS! AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!! (you'd be deaf right now if you'd heard that scream. lol)

I think you're right about the unwed father's home. I think it WOULD change a lot of ways things are done. If the boys had the same things happen to them we did and maybe some still do, they'd go completely crazy.

Have them lose their friends, be ripped out of their comfortable homes, go to schools for unwed fathers and be away from everyone so they didn't have the chance to be a "bad influence", be called names and shunned because they couldn't keep their pants zipped up, oh YES they'd do things differently and there probably wouldn't be as many pregnancies to unwed girls either! The boys would try harder to use contraceptives even tripple up on those rubbers. Or wear suits like they wear in the hazardous clean up but have the private area formed so the sex would happen but NO CHANCE of anything escaping to get the girl pregnant. NOW that would be a sight don't you think? lol

Sorry, I'm about to spilt a gut here thinking about this right now. lol

MEN!

Rylee

[billysmommy]

When our (then) 19 year old daughter got pregnant, I was shocked by the responses of "well WHAT is she going to do?" To us it was obvious what she was going to do - she was going to have a baby! Everyone had an opinion - she's too young, it's too hard as a single parent, she's not married, she can't afford a baby. And then WE heard the " I'm so sorry" , "You must be so ashamed", etc...

Our grandaughter is now 3 months old. This was 2007/2008. I cannot imagine the pressures of years ago. DH was a single father, we are an adoptive family, and we aren't rich. There was no hesitation, no question in our minds that we would support her decision whatever it was. We aren't sorry, nor are we ashamed. In fact, we are proud, proud parents and proud grandparents. Our daughter is a 20 year old, single, FANTASTIC mom and our grandaughter is the sweetest little thing ever!

We cannot go back and undo what has already been done, but it is time we move forward and embrace all parents - young, old, married, single, rich, poor.

[MamaS]

The reasons why it was so awful "then" are not so valid "now".
Then: Babies born to an unmarried mother had the word "ILLEGITIMATE" stamped on the birth certificate as a permanant description.
Now, there is just a blank where the father's name should be, and it can be added later if the mother so wishes.
Then: Girls had no vocational training. If their families would not support them, they had no way to get a job. Some jobs even specified that single mothers would NOT be hired. They were not to be around "innocent" children or "respectable" women. The teaching field was usually closed to s-p mothers, but nursing was sometimes a possibility.
Now: There are High School vocational tracks, and if a girl is determined, college is a possibility. Scholarships, student loans, work-study programs, on-line classes, evening classes - lots of possibilities for balancing motherhood, a job, and education.
Then: The widely held belief that the best family was a two-parent family with a stay-at-home mom.
Now: The recognition that 1 out of 2 marriages will end in divorce, so placing a child with a two-parent family is no guarantee that it will not end up being raised by a single parent anyway.
Then: People believed that decent Christian girls never had sex before marriage.
Now: Well, some things never change. But there are fewer Christians around to express their disapproval!

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by MamaS

Then: The widely held belief that the best family was a two-parent family with a stay-at-home mom.
Now: The recognition that 1 out of 2 marriages will end in divorce, so placing a child with a two-parent family is no guarantee that it will not end up being raised by a single parent anyway.
Then: People believed that decent Christian girls never had sex before marriage.
Now: Well, some things never change. But there are fewer Christians around to express their disapproval!

Well, I got sold that I was going to be horrendous parent because I would have been single my son would be better off without me and with a TWO parent family in... ummmmmm 2004.

As for Christian girls..... yeah shouldn't that apply to Christian boys too? There were plenty of "Christians" around here to call me names and insult me when I was pregnant. It isn't over and it doesn't go away, and if being crappy to people is expressing disapproval, wow, I'm sorry I'm a Christian.

Rylee, totally with you on the unwed father homes. Let's make these men that father ten, fifteen, twenty kids suffer through what women suffer.... ohhhh I would LOVE that. (I know multiple men that have fathered that many children BTW, and don't care and don't help with a single one of them.)

[dpen6]

BACK THEN, it was because it proved a girl had sex...GASP....all families needed to cover that up because heaqven there girls could't possibly do that. Never mind the boys were having sex too, they got a pat on the back for it...good boy.your a man...ect. As a result the baby carried the "shame" of the mother having sex...crazy isn't it. But, it is still happening today in some other countries, the girl is responsable for the families "honor" and if she has sex, even if its rape, they can be KILLED by their own brothers for dishonering the famly...now that even more crazy!

The other prevalent attitude even today is the fact that some girls did and do use having babies to collect welfare. Yes, it does happen. Joe taxpayer gets upset and rightly so. So they are called welfare queens. I really do beleive that most tax payeers don't mind the welfare aspect when it really is used as intended, as a tempory leg up kinda thing.

What really gets me is the sense of doom when it is discovered a young girl is pregant and the horror still exhibeted today. Even with intact marriages, seell off peole, it is like there is doom and gloom. My intial reaction is like get a grip..ITS A BABY...a wonderful thing..it is NOT the end of the world. A diagnoses of cancer is the end of the world , losing a loved one is the end of the world. NOT a baby.....assuming that the peole invovled are relatively healthy both emotionaly and physically. Yes, its hard, but doable.

[ProspectiveSingleMom]

Since I started pursuing single parenthood, I have become more and more aware of how much stigma is still out there. There seems to be stigma with everything in our society. Like, when I was married and didn't have kids, people would ask me why we didn't have kids. After I got divorced, I had people in my family tell me how they hoped I "learned from my mistake" and wouldn't co-habit before marriage "next time". Now that I'm planning to adopt and NOT planning to ever get married again, I get "oh, the right man will come along, you just have to be patient."

[djvj]

when i think of what would change if the father's had to experience what the birthmother does, i think there would be RADICAL reform of adoption laws and procedures. meaning, there would be many more resources made available on all options, less pressure and shame about parenting and/or adopting or aborting, specific laws in place to ensure bparents are informed of their rights, counseling, an increase of birthparent rights, etc...

men in general don't stand for being pushed around and marginalized like we women do. i'm not a radical feminist or anything, but i wish we would stop fighting/competing/envying each other as women and realize we are all in the same boat. while people are very aware about issues of racial discrimination and religious discrimination, i always wonder why sexual discrimination isn't as widely discussed and acknowledged? yes, certain laws have changed in the workplace and financial world, but the facts are women in general have to cope with social expectations and demands that men would find unacceptable. imo,the darn problem is we love men, so it's harder to separate that from our needs for independence and equal treatment.

have you noticed all the b and a moms on this site and the very few number of dads? is it because mom's naturally care more or is it that so much of the responsibility and work falls squarely on women in general?

sorry, riley, don't mean to hijack, but i just get so angry at the injustice that goes on all day, every day, all around us. and we think of ourselves as a developed civilization.

[Rylee45]

I know what you guys mean about the stigma still being part of today. I know it was worse back when my mom was pregant with me had "had" to get married and when I was pregnant with my daughter but "had" to give her up.

I know in my church there are girls still getting pregnant and one girl and her mother who was brave enough to stand up to everyone and kept her baby was looked at like they were insane for not giving the baby a "chance" at a good life. (can I puke now???) She is doing a good job as a mother and the girl's mother is helping her take care of the baby. I was THRILLED when I found out they weren't going to give the baby up for adoption. I couldn't have been HAPPIER!

The baby will never have to wonder who he is or where he came from. The girl will never have to wonder when she looks into a child's eyes who might look like her son and wonder if it IS her son. Or have to go through all the pain and sorrow of losing her child to someone else.

As for the men who have more than one child at a time and don't have to pay consequences. I know exactly what you mean! My daughter's birth father was that way. He was in bed with everything that moved (litterally) and there were at least 5 or more other children born at the same time as my daughter was born ALL fathered by him! He was a scum! I didn't know that until much later and after I had returned home from my foster home (unwed mother's home).

Hey maybe we could petition the courts some how to enforce an "unwed father's home". That would be great in my opinion! It really would! What do you think? Could we do it?

Rylee

[lovemy2boys]

Wow....

I tell ya, the years go by, and hard as we try, attitudes don't really change. I mean, of course things have improved, but not as much as we'd think they should.

It's like swimming against the current...We feel like we're getting somewhere, but for every 10 feet forward, we go 20 feet back.

And y'all are right - (as much as I hate to pull the sexism thing) if this was an injustice against men, things would change!

And the sad thing is that women are oftentimes the most judgemental of each other!!! What the heck! We should all be in this together! Adoption, pregnancy, work, life, whatever!!!

(Ok - I know - sweeping generalizations here, but hey - it's that kind of night for me).

Rylee, as a personal sidenote, I think you are something else...I really do. I read all your posts with interest - I may not always be on the same side of the fence as you, but I have to say, I admire the heck out of your drive and willingness (for lack of a better word) to work through the hardships you've been through.

[Rylee45]

I think trying to work through things in spite of whether I actually keep sliding back in the the feeling sorry for myself, being angry with the world, still being angry with my mom etc, I can't just lay down and do nothing and say nothing and be nothing. I think if I didn't say or do something with the feelings I have, I'd go completely crazy instead of the half crazy I am.

People have tried to shut me up for years. I'm not a shutter upper. lol

When I was a child, very young child, I was one of the most out spoken little girls you'll ever meet. I spoke my mind and it got me into a LOT of trouble.

My mom had been letting me spend the night at my grandmother's house when I was 4 or 5 years old and my grandmother was asking questions about what was going on at my house. She told me she wouldn't tell anyone what I said if I told her. So I told her all about the abuse my dad was giving me (sexual and physical) and said she couldn't say anything cuz she promised. She never did.

Well, my mom knew something was up. She decided to lie to me and tell me that my grandmother had told her everything I was telling her so I should tell her too so she knew if my grandmother was telling the truth or not.

Me being the naive child I was, beleived my mom. I didn't think she'd ever lie to me. After all she was my mom and mom's don't lie to their kids (or so I believed back then). I thought my grandmother had told her everything and so told my mom too.

The next time my grandmother came to get me I told her I hated her and that she was a big fat liar cuz she told my mom what I said to her and broke her promise and I just continued to scream at her. My mom had no idea I was ever going to say anything to my grandmother so didn't tell me not to say anything. She was shocked at what I did when my grandmother came to get me the next time.

My mother knowing my grandmother had not actually told her anything didn't know what to do. She couldn't tell me she'd lied and she couldn't tell my grandmother she'd told me she told her everything. She just let me scream at my grandmother. She left our house and never had me spend the night at her house again. In fact I never had a good relationship with her again after that. I missed out on having a grandmother over that stupid situation.

I was a very strong willed child most of my life and I was and still am a talker plus a bag of chips. lol I even talk in my sleep. lol.

But anyway... I do speak my mind. Sometimes a little too late and sometimes way too early and sometimes when I actually should. I sure wish that had worked to my favor when I was pregnant with my daughter. You know? I wish I could have stood up for myself and said, "NO YOU CAN'T HAVE MY BABY!" but I couldn't speak up for myself when it really counted. I don't understand why.

Rylee

[quantum]

Don't you think reading 'Girls' helps you to understand a bit why you could NOT speak up? It helped me to understand why adoption was the only option I could consider...

And yes it STINKS! This double standard. Grrr

I have gotten such an interesting perspective living in Sweden the past 5 years. The rate of domestic adoption is next to 0. Social services help single parents. It's SO DIFFERENT. It is extremely common for couples to live together, they even have a word to describe this relationship. It's extremely common for children to take part in their parents weddings!
I had my older daughter before we were married. We were living together, she was 100% planned, we'd planned on getting married but we had a timeline for that and we had a timeline for trying to get pregnant and they had nothing to do with each other. It was sort of humorous for me to be cutting out my wedding dress while 8 months pregnant...we got married when she was 4 months.
That's quite ok here, but I could see how it was freaking my parents out.

You know what I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT. The labels put on unmarried pregnant girls. I can see why being a single parent is hard. Being a married parent is hard! LIFE IS HARD.

[Rylee45]

Yes I do think reading the book helps me to understand why I couldn't speak up but I still don't understand why with the stubbonness and strong will that I have and had that I couldn't stand up for myself and my baby in spite of the "brainwashing" that was done and the stigma etc.



Rylee