[Jensboys]

Rylee -- I am the daughter in your situation. My mom was a BSE mom who was forced in probably one of the most horrifiic situations I have read about (painful delivery, treatment by family and church, rejection by father etc).

When I was 16 we reunited with my sister, then 27 (mom 43). Before that point I had no idea my sister existed -- after I was exposed to the horror and depths of my mom's pain, and my sister's pain (she was certainly an adoptee that was damaged by adoption).

AND still, despite being fertile (we started the process when bio son was 4 months old) we chose to adopt. We adopted a sib group of 2 (then ages 3 and 4) from foster care.

I can tell you that my mom has been HUGELY influential in my view of open adoption, contact with our kids first family, our acceptance of extended first family members as our family as well ...

ALSO watching our adoption journey, the acceptance of our family of our sons -- the acceptance of my husband and I of our boys first family - the acceptance of our boys of their rather complicated family history has been hugely healing for my mom.

Although she may not understand why or how come a first mom abused our kids, she understands that their mom paid the highest possible price for her mistake - the loss of her children.

It has brought my mom and I closer together. It has allowed my mom to see "the other side" (child's view mostly). IT has allowed me to be way, way, way more sensitive to first family than I would have other wise been.

Just keep an open mind. Love your daughter as an adult making an adult decision. And more than anything, any grandchild deserves the adoration of a grandma

Jen

[TxMom65]

You have to remember that every birthmom is not living your same situation. Each one is unique. I really doubt that there are any who 'don't want the baby'. Even in foster care situations where the abuse and neglect is horrific, they still want (and love) the kids.

Like Crick, I've struggled with my feelings for my daughter's birthmother. Well, both parents. She suffered abuse and neglect at their hands for 3 years. Yet I expect her to seek them out. I would if I were her. I have questions myself. I also tell her that it is OK to feel love for her mom, to think about her, and to talk about her. I have to do that.

I've learned so much from the firstmoms on this site. I wish we had a situation where we could have an open adoption. Our case isn't like one where an adoption plan is made and we can have openness. I'm sad for that loss. But I have to protect her. I also have to hide my thoughts of wondering how on earth she could hurt this child.

I don't want to change your feelings on adoption. But if I judged all adoptions based on my experience and wrote all birthmoms are women who abuse and hate their kids, I would be SO wrong. We can't judge everyone's experience by the one that we have had.

[Mardan]

I am the adoptive mom to two Guatemalan blessings. My husband and I tried for years to have children and were not successful and after praying and going to countless meetings we felt God tugging at our hearts and telling us this is where our family would come from. About this time last year after bringing our son home we searched for (and successfully found) our daughter's birthmom. We had talked about this almost since we brought her home and in fact when we met her for the first time we actually thought her birthmother came along (turns out the foster mom's younger daughter could pass as our birthmom's twin). And yes we also heard the same things from our parents as some of the remarks on here well thankfully they have all embraced our daughter and love and cherish her so. I guess what I am trying to say here is that we have had an ongoing conversation almost since our kids have been home about their birthmoms and it is hard to put into words the way I feel about them and how selfless they are compared to me. I just know I love and cherish my kids and if it wasn't for these moms I would not have the family I have always dreamed of. Thanks for letting me speak my peace and I hope I didn't upset anyone.

Julie (proud mom to a princess and a prince)

[thanksgivingmom]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

No matter how many good stories may be out there, I know of many more that aren't. The good stories are the ones that seem infrequent but I know they are out there. I know that some people give their babies away because they want to. I know that some adoptive parents actually keep commitments they made at the adoption.

I also know that unless there were a lot more who didn't keep those commitments, there wouldn't be so many women wanting to have a law put into effect that would make the adoptive parents HAVE to keep the commitment they made at the adoption.

Rylee, I think this is a bit of a fallacy. In my OA, promises are kept, emails are responded to, dates for visits are set. Pictures are sent not because of a date set in stone, but because DD did something precious. I can't say that our OA would be any more successful if there was a legal peice of paper requiring those actions.

Having said that, I am COMPLETELY behind legally enforcable documents detailing OA requirements. I believe that women that want to have laws put into effect protecting everyone's rights in OA are doing it for adoption as a whole, not just for thier own experience. My experience is great, but I want these laws for my sisters out there who's promises are being broken.

I know this was a bit of a tangent, but I just think it's important to remember that "statistics" or what we see isn't necessarily representative of everything that's really going on. (Don't get me wrong, I DO think adoption needs reform!) But it's also easier to complain about the bad times than to talk about the good - it makes for better headlines unfortunately.

[Oceans]

I am concerned about the "convinced and brainwashed" comment

I do know that there are more women out there convinced and brainwashed by society that they can't do it alone or shouldn't do it alone than those who can't parent or don't want to parent.

I also know they are being convinced that their child would be better off in a "two parent family" than being raised by them, the mother of that baby. I believe there are more of THOSE situations out there than those who truely don't want to parent or can't parent their child.

I happen to love statistics. While they don’t speak to the individual experience they certainly help dispel myths and stereotyping. US voluntary adoption is a statistical rarity. MOST unmarried women do choose to parent. Voluntary Relinquishment for Adoption: Numbers and Trends

“Only 1% of teens choose adoption AND (from another source) the children of teens represent only ¼ of the children placed annually in the US.
Only 2% of unmarried women place" (These statistics are from 1995 and include relative adoptions)
"Several researchers agree that it is likely that relinquishment rates will not increase in the next several years (Miller & Coyl, 2000; Freundlich, 1998).”

“Most research focuses on unmarried teens who relinquish a child. In addition to being disproportionately White, those who relinquish tend to have higher education and income levels, higher future career and educational aspirations, and a strong preference for adoption expressed by the teen's mother and/or the birth father (Miller & Coyl, 2000)”. NOTE: Some of the data about the above is very interesting and to me suggests that more education is needed for middle to upper class PARENTS of unmarried girls who are pregnant.

“…a higher proportion of unmarried mothers are in their 20s rather than their teens, so the personal and financial stresses may not be as great as in the past (Freundlich, 1998)."

Read this how you like but the MAJORITY of the women who place their child are older (in 20’s), middle class, and educated.. These are not women without choices and I have to give them the benefit of the doubt. They know what they are doing – or at least have the ability to research their options. Yes, they are influenced by their mothers but are typically old enough to make an educated choice.

I’m not saying the system is perfect and unplanned pregnancies ARE overwhelming, but I do not think the system is as flawed you believe.

[Rylee45]

I guess after reading so much on the net in other groups and just research about stuff like this, I still believe that brainwashing and coersion are a big part of why women give their babies up.

But whos to say for sure. Only God knows.

I know that there are a lot of women/girls who won't tell family or friends how they really feel but will write it online or talk to people they don't know. They want to be "brave" and "say" it's their choice rather than tell anyone how they really feel.

I have known enough women personally who held back and never told anyone how they felt about giving the baby up or how it came about. They just dealt with it and tried to go on and stuffed the saddness and regret down of not standing up and saying, "No, I'm keeping my baby I will find a way to take care of it because I love it."

If in fact more women in their 20's and educated etc are the ones actually giving their babies up after having informed choices, then it's really not for the baby. It's for their own lives and happiness they want.

The reason I feel that way is, if they have the education, jobs, etc and still choose someone else to raise their babies, it's not because they can't take care of it finantially, it's because they don't want to and are more interested in their freedom and fun than raising their child. (unless it's rape or incest or something that would constantly remind them of how the baby came to being)

If a girl is too young, uneducated, and has no support or help in raising the child and is told it's better for the child and has no other choices it's a desperate thing to give her child a better chance at life (whether by choice or coersion into doing it).

I know this sounds mean but I'm not trying to be mean. It's my opinion. The children given up really do (for the most part not everyone obviously) feel they were abandoned and always have questions about why their first mother gave them to someone else instead of keeping them.

A lot of adopted people won't admit that because they don't want their adoptive parents feeling hurt and they don't want anyone knowing how they really feel about being given to someone else rather than being able to stay in their first family.

This isn't from my own personal belief system from my hatered of adoption. It's from reading books and things online and talking to adopted people and first moms and really studying it out.

If this was just from my own horrible nightmare experiences I would probably back down and wouldn't say a word about it after reading what all the people here who are more or less opposed to what I say (not angry or telling me off but just don't share the same opinion as I do) but it's from a LOT of reading other people's stories online and going to the library to read books about adoption and the feelings that people have in all aspects of it, listening to people talking about it in places I've been. Also just talking to people who are part of the triad.

Rylee

[belleinblue1978]

Wow Rylee, you're right, I gave my son the gift of two parents that love him b/c I wanted to go out and have fun. Thanks for the empathy.

I don't even know what to say to that.

[lovemy2boys]

The thing that really keeps bringing me back to this thread is not to debate adoption or to try to place my opinions onto you...It's because I really think that your daughter who is considering adoption may see your objection as an "abandonment" as well - that you are abandoning her because of your pain...And if she decides not to adopt because she fears that it could cause a rift in your relationship, she may ultimately come to resent you, especially if she senses disapproval, which she will surely be on high alert since you've already discussed this with her. And if she DOES adopt, you can be sure she will be hypersensitive to the way you interact with all the children...

(I'm not saying that your feelings are invalid or that this is your "fault", but I know how important my mother's support is, especially when it comes to mothering. You see this as a sort of "betrayal" of a mother placing her child, and your daughter would see it as you choosing someone else over her.)

I have seen alot of cases where women carry resentment of people who they feel weren't supportive of their desire to expand family...And although she has two children already, she just may not feel like her life is complete. It's hard on a woman to hear that she should be satisfied with what she has if she still has a longing...

Maybe instead of telling her that it is "selfish of a person to be so ready to take another girl/woman's child from them so they can have a child", you can tell her that your pain gives you a different point of view, and that you'd love to try to work through things with her so you can be supportive of her decision, regardless of what it is." It would be a shame if the relationship between you and your daughter (and ultimately your Grandchildren) becomes damaged because of this.

Like I said, not trying to debate, just trying to show a different perspective...

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

If in fact more women in their 20's and educated etc are the ones actually giving their babies up after having informed choices, then it's really not for the baby. It's for their own lives and happiness they want.

The reason I feel that way is, if they have the education, jobs, etc and still choose someone else to raise their babies, it's not because they can't take care of it finantially, it's because they don't want to and are more interested in their freedom and fun than raising their child. (unless it's rape or incest or something that would constantly remind them of how the baby came to being)
I know this sounds mean but I'm not trying to be mean. It's my opinion.

Rylee, the operative word here is "opinion". Please do not presume to know my situation, or motivations, at the age of 23 when I placed my son. You are making gross generalizations that are hurtful and not founded in fact.

[thanksgivingmom]

Rylee, I have to completely agree with Belle and Brenda on this one.

I was 24 years old with a Masters degree when my daughter was born. Your accusation that my interests were simply in "freedom" and "fun" are off base and insulting.

[Rylee45]

I'm sorry. I am not saying anything that I've said because I'm trying to hurt anyone.

I have a lot of resentment of adoption but you're right those of you who have gotten offended, have a right. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Rylee

[belleinblue1978]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

I'm sorry. I am not saying anything that I've said because I'm trying to hurt anyone.

I have a lot of resentment of adoption but you're right those of you who have gotten offended, have a right. I'm sorry. Please forgive me.

Rylee

Rylee,

I understand being angry with adoption, really I do. Trust me though it isn't like I am out running around doing crazy fun stuff all the time. I would give up everything I have to be able to have my son with me.

Here is the thing though. The man that got me pregnant is incapable of being even close to a loving parent, even a good part time loving dad. My son deserved way more than that. He deserved two people that love him with all their hearts. I loved him enough to be UNSELFISH and see that.

[crick]

Originally Posted by Rylee45

If this was just from my own horrible nightmare experiences I would probably back down and wouldn't say a word about it after reading what all the people here who are more or less opposed to what I say (not angry or telling me off but just don't share the same opinion as I do) but it's from a LOT of reading other people's stories online and going to the library to read books about adoption and the feelings that people have in all aspects of it, listening to people talking about it in places I've been. Also just talking to people who are part of the triad.
Rylee

But why is it that only the pain, suffering, negative all end be all the only side you can see? That's what I don't get. For every book or person out there you see speaking for your view, there is a book and person completely the opposite. So to me it IS your personal experience that decides your ultimate judgements you seem to have. And I say that because I think for many, they can see a lot of sides. I can look at my kids' very negative past and still find the positive in parts of it. My children are beautiful and have many inner traits that are not from me or dh and those are very positive things about them.

I can also see that despite my personal feelings on certain things, those are MINE and somewhere in there I have to deal with that and allow myself to open up to other sides of things. I can empathize with those who really wish to heck they didn't have to place their child and see their pain. I can also see many who have been able to say "this is MINE" and it might not be yours.
I see adoptees who wish they didn't have to be in the middle of their parents' "Solomon Battle" and learn from that. I can see so many sides that say "this is MINE" and know that we all have our pain, joys and whatever else is there. It's hard for me to understand why anything positive about adoption at all, including a possible new grandchild, can't be seen by you. Or perhaps won't be seen?

Claim yours for what it is and that's your view..that's fine. No one here is going to change that view. But you might want to make sure your view doesn't lend the judgement to a "speak for all that are in my bubble of pain view and if they aren't, they are in denial" view. A lot of people are accused of wearing rose colored glasses here, and some are to be sure, but I have to say I think your own glasses are quite dark indeed.

I hope your dd is able to make the right decision for her and her family and I hope too she has a mother there for her when she needs her to be. Don't make the same mistake your own parents seem to have made.

[Rylee45]

I'm truely sorry that I can't see anything possitive about adoption.

And no I will never be able to accept an adopted child as my grandchild because to me they aren't. I can't help that. My negative experiences with adoption and the adoptive mother's horrible interference with my daughter and I having any kind of relationship is why I feel as I do.

I just can't feel any differently and some people here don't understands that.

I'm sorry that I offended people here. I truely wasn't intending that to happen.

When I made comments about the statistics that were posted, I guess I wasn't thinking about anyone here in those statistics. I was just looking at the statistics and spoke before I thought about the fact that a lot of you are in those staticstics. I was wrong to not think about that before posting what I posted.

I don't want people to be angry with me for feeling the way I do. I'm not angry for anyone else's opinions. You all have the right to your feelings and opinions even if what you say back to me in anger or whatever might hurt my feelings or make me feel angry too.

In my opinion everyone has the right to voice their opinions no matter what that might be. I can't say I always like what's being said but I try to just see things as opinions that everyone has the right to have and express. <