[rainmon]

tlee, we have also wondered if her pregnancy hormones had aided in her emotional turmoil and outbursts... as things did seem to really get difficult during that time also... but has also continued afterwards like yours....we have also wondered if it was something we said or did , but without a calm constant communication on whats going on I fear for our future.
as now she is in the Pullback.
do you think you are sabotaging the very thing that you want the most? and is it something you feel you can almost not control? I really have related to a lot you have said too.
keep talking to us.... it seems, we all help each other in different ways.

[tlee70]

I don't think that I purposely sabatage our relationship, but I do believe, deep down that I really wasn't wanted. The smallest comment like "I would have been a milkman had I kept you" reaffirms those feelings. Even though said in joking, it profoundly effects the self worth. I do believe that my bfather does want to have a relationship, but lacks the skills to know how. I have tried to tell him, send him articles, books on how it goes, but ultimately the lines of communication are not there. I am very emotional regarding all aspects of my adoption..he is not an emotional person...so he has said, his wife and children. I really wished that we could go to some type of counselling together, but I wouldn't even dream of bringing up the suggestion..I know they would not go. Even reading the books would be a great help, but again....I know his life is too busy for that type of thing.
If you read back on some of my posts, I written about my difficult childhood. I have had many years of counselling, but still have issues regarding my adopted family. Honestly...my most common phrase these days is that I have sooo much family, yet I really have none. I truly feel like nobody's daughter....my bmom doesn't even acknowledge me as a "daughter"..just a close family friend. So, I'm starting to come to terms with that... focus on my immediate family more...create new traditions, enjoy our time together and not worry about anyone outside our 4some.
I am through with making an effort....It's been 15yrs with bmom and 4yrs with bdad. I know that I"ve made mistakes along the road..but so have they...
You talk about the pullback stage...for me, it's like someone else said...I've broken down and can't get up on my own... the lines of communication need to be there, to ask fo help. I still have "communication" with both bparents...but it's certainly not a "help" line.

[kune]

tlee

It's been 15yrs with bmom and 4yrs with bdad

I'd have to say that you have given it time - and your best shot - and if after 15 years you still haven't made a "dent" then it's not going to happen for you. Not what you want and need anyway.

Sometimes I think the need to be free of difficult relationships in our life takes over. Do what is healthy for you instead of worrying about what could have been.

((hugs)) to you. I wish it could have been different. If only they knew what they were missing out on!!

Ann

[keds]

tlee, I have to admit, as much as I would want to hang on, kune is right. You've given time and, I think, a lot of your heart, in trying to make it work. Maybe a break is needed? I would still send cards on special days - birthdays and christmas but let them come to you, if they don't well, it's their loss. Focus on those people in your life that want a relationship and make you feel happy. I too have lots of relatives but only have 2 that I think would pick me up should my car break down in the middle of nowhere late at night (something a dear friend who just passed away told me that qualified me as a close friend). It is just as important to let go of relationships that are hurtful as it is to put the time in to repair those that have gone off track. IMO, I'm afraid by the sounds of it, that you are better off without these people in your life, for now. My favourite song is one of Janis Joplin's but there is only so much of your heart you can give before there is nothing left. All the best and stay in touch. Although we are "strangers" to each other here on the forums we do care very much for you and your feelings.


P.S. I would never say I was going to do anything else with my life, regardless of my bson. I didn't do anything that I planned, "life is what happens when you're busy making other plans". I can tell you many friends have asked if I had it to do over again would I do the same thing - maybe, maybe not. But I certainly wouldn't choose not to have my bson. Maybe I wouldn't have placed him for adoption but that would have been selfish on my part. He's a wonderful young person, as I think you are. Very sensitive, successful and I cringe when I hear how difficult it is for some aparents and adoptees. Even with the guilt I have, I wouldn't change anything about my life, well, maybe I would have saved more money!

[Jannyroo]

Originally Posted by rainmon

I am wondering if the "punishment rigime" part, is being addressed in Verriers books, or is that something you have experienced. as it really rang home with me as you wrote:" If you make your self too available you can play into the adoptees punishment regime, this is not concious but it's kind of a 'see how YOU like it" yes... I think that may be happening with us, and I wonder how common it is. and while I know that most pull -backs are for protection of ones own heart, and I do beleive it should be used in extreme cases where communication has been tried and failed.

Like I've said, its done unconciously and I only know it from my experience and from Verrier's books, my adoption counsellor (who says that adoptees, particularly males, "emotionally beat their bmothers up something chronic") and from Norcap (a UK organisation that say that about 80% of adoptees when in reunion with their bmothers make them "pay" for relinquishing them) - its not done conciously and if they are aware of it, they won't be able to stop it. It takes time and trust and enormous endurance for the bmother to allow them to be tested by their child in this way. Remember its the inner child that is responding this way and most dont realise they are doing it. It is something they have to work through and I as a bmother had to help my son work through it and after over a year, I had to call time and say "enough" as I KNOW that I'd endured enough, but I have to say, it IS tough on any bmother and anyone seeing her suffer. My sister wanted me to call time on the relationship, but somehow, I hung on in there. I'm glad I did, as my son and I have "made it" now. I've been able to reach his defenses and he trusts me now.

Originally Posted by rainmon

I have heard on other threads by others that it has also been used to hurt or punish also, and they don't know why they do it.... and regret it after they do it but sometimes just can't stop themselves from doing it. so I am hoping that it is being addressed now as it does seem to be causing some reunion problems.and not everyone can afford to pay for counseling to get it all figured out on why they are doing it to each other.

Verrier's books (the Primal wound you should be able to loan from a library) will help enormously, I know I worked it out for myself by researching my son through her two books. She is bang on in most things, but again, using my instincts, I was able to see most times what applied and what didn't. I have to say most of the time what I read DID apply to my son and I could make more appropriate comments when he would come out with stuff that frankly would have confused me before I read Verrier. e.g. why he was so afraid to leave home and start up on his own. As a grown man (of 29) I would have thought eh? but once I read Verrier, I realised that he needs to get his relationship with his amother much better and settled before he is able to feel secure enough for such a move. If you read Verrier's Primal Wound, what I am saying will make more sense.

Originally Posted by rainmon

Kune, you mentioned I should save my energy for my family and friends.... but you see she IS my family now, and I also consider her a friend. and something has gone so wrong with this reunion and we have no idea what..... and... yes sometimes I am angry about it, other times sad, hurt and confused or scared at whats happening and I do come here like everyone else to learn from others, to seek understanding and to vent when needed. and if there is any way possible to find a way to put out the fire on this nice bridge that we have been building and seems now to be slowly burning, I am willing to try to save it, I am just not the type to just look the other way and pretend I don't see it burning.

Kune I feel, is pointing out that reunion can be all consuming and sometimes we just have to get on with our day to day family life and concentrate on that and leave the dust to settle so to speak with the reunion. Sometimes what is needed is just time. time for the adoptee to come to terms with the enormous emotional hernia that has come to pass. Many years of feeling alone and not knowing who they are, and then, after decades, there she is. Their bmother. It is truly hard and I don't think the rest of us "get it" as we haven't been adoptees. Verrier again gave enormous insight into what adoptees can go through. It makes for painful reading, especially for bmoms and some can't handle it to be frank. I know it sent me into spasm, but my determination to make this reunion work for me overcame the pain and mental agony. But, we all need emotional rest and I feel that is what Kune may have been saying. Get a bit of distance from the situation for a bit, get a bit of emotional rest. THEN, patience can come forwards a bit. Its easy to lose patience when one doesn't really understand what the heck is going on and I got a few anger issues which I expressed on these forums and exasperation. Reunion just isn't normal!!! but neither is adoption either. The defense mechanisms that come about in adoptees are a normal reaction to an abnormal situation - the trauma of being taken away from the woman whose womb you've spent the past 9 months in and being given to another woman who's body chemistry, smell, heartbeat, everything, just isn't right. This sets the baby up for defenses to try and cope in a world that is conflicting with what its known for 9 months, hence Verriers' explanations as to how to deal with those mechanisms and it is a skill that needs to be learned. Patience too. Asking someone (in my case, my son) - is this how it feels? and not retorting with "well you shouldn't feel that way" - they DO feel that way. Its enough to drive us all mad, but thats what reunion involves - more knowledge, more sensitivity and its a one way street with adoptees I'm afraid - they need all the understanding before they are able to respond back. LIke an illustration I've used before - its like they have broken legs emotionally - only the bmother can help heal those legs. Once that has happened, THEN they can respond and get up and walk tentatively and the reunion can be more successful. Painful? yes, unsteady? (everyone is) - but small steps at a time and TAKE TIME to get there. Everyone seems to be in a steaming rush to get a relationship off the ground, but most take a heck of a long time. Trust doesn't arrive just because one of you says you can be trusted. Only time and sticking in there will prove that to an adoptee. Again Verrier gives valuable insights that WILL prove dividends if you can apply it.

whilst counselling is expensive, I agree, I honestly think that I worked most of it out for myself by listening to my son, reading up, apologising for when I got it wrong, and helping him to heal. My pain I had to put to one side, to reach him and I feel it is worth it, to get to where we are today. I wish you success and feel free to contact me anytime.

(((hugs))))

[Jannyroo]

Originally Posted by tlee70

rainmon, as I've been reading your posts, you've really struck a cord with me. It's made me see that some of my actions/words may have caused anger from my bparent. I'm sure deep down I was really seeing if they would "leave" again, feeling unsure of my "place", wondering if I were just an "obligation". I decided it was safer to cut ties...since my other bparent had hurt me so much. Combine those feelings a few months after giving birth and you can imagine how emotional and angry my letter was....That was a few years ago, and I still feel that we haven't really moved past it. I was the one that eventually said sorry for my letter (even after I was told it was shared). The relationship I have with both siblings,especially my sister changed dramatically afterwards. Sometimes I just want to apologize for my exisitence and say...sorry to have upset everyone. I was confused ...still am some days, is that understandable? forgivable?? I haven't closed the door on any of my bfamily, but I'm not going to intrude any longer.

I honestly think you should read The Primal Wound by Nancy Verrier. Your feelings above are so normal. You feel abnormal, but nothing you are saying is such. You have been reacting normally to an abnormal situation! (read my post above to rainmom). Anger and frustration is as much part and parcel of reunion, as happiness joy and ecstasy. However, communication is a MUST and my son has told me when he's been annoyed about something, because I've asked him. However, you wrote a letter to your bparent and it was shown to siblings. Your reaction to this was very strong causing you to coil back but very normal, as all adoptees like a huge measure of control over their situation due to the fact they had none when they were a baby. They grow up thinking albeit subconciously, NO-ONE is going to have that kind of power over me again! So you grow up as a chameleon trying to please all and everyone with confidence issues, relationship issues et al - how do I know this? The Primal Wound - and there is so much more that will put your mind at rest. Please do get hold of a copy even if through your local library.

So your mom shared a letter with sibs. It can be helpful you know for all to understand you. I sent a letter to my son and his adoptive mother read it without his permission because he'd left it lying on the table. It was a cry of angst from me asking him if he needed more space and time, and she pretty much bulldozed him into phoning me (albeit he was annoyed, he said he would have done it in his own time). I felt quite touched by that, as it meant she CARED and I definitely needed some support there. So although you felt it shouldn't have been read (and I don't know the content), are you able to see that you are that important that the whole family wanted to know and understand how you felt about things? or did you think they felt less of you because of what you'd said? Were you able to put your feelings on the line (I doubt it, thats like scary!) and talk on the phone? Perhaps phone is better than email/letter, as one can tell the emotions and measure whether there is a depth of caring?

So often perceived hurt is because the adoptee is so very wounded in the first place. Verrier will guide you through this. I'm just so glad and grateful to that woman for spelling it out, as I can understand adoptees so much better now, including my son, and especially my son. Its important to be more informed and if you like "taught" as to what is going on so that we can all adjust. I have had to guide my son through all of his reactions to me, his aparents, life! as he is crippled by his emotions. I feel you are too, and its absolutely normal because of your being in an abnormal situation.

Its always safer to cut ties than risk it with a mother that left you ... how many years ago? Every adoptee is ready to leg it. They test and need to keep testing a bmother and a bmother has to be prepared to be tested and "take it" so that the adoptee can grow in confidence that she indeed is not going to leave again. That could take ... however long it takes, but Verrier suggests that if the testing (by holding back, withdrawing, pull back etc ) is more than a year, its time to Come home to Self. The false self and inner child has had its grip on an adoptees life for far too long if it is interfering with relationships and its time to move on. She will explain. If you want a copy of some of the Coming home to self, PM me and I'll copy some of what I've typed up for my own son, to help him adjust and realise that his false self is crippling his ability to leave behind the fear and confusion that adoption has brought him.

Now you have given birth - oh my goodness. A pregnancy and reunion - what a double whammy! No wonder you are all over the place and plagued with doubts, emotions and scary feelings. You are a mom! and hormones and emotions all over the place. Be easy on yourself and give yourself time to adjust to these two MAJOR events in your life - reunion and becoming a mother.

Yes its best to be emotional and angry on these forums. But there is another neat little book called The adoption reunion survival guide (Julie bailey/Lynn giddens) and she mentions that relationships can be REPAIRED. p140 says: Despite all that occurred between them, its possible that their relationship can be repaired. .. it will also take honesty and open communication. Its rather a sad way to begin a reunion but sometimes it can't be helped due to the participants lack of self improvement work (in the example given) or simply their personalities.

If it helps you to know, my son and I were pretty explosive in the first year of reunion. There were fireworks, I can tell you! we are both strong personalities. But there was humour too. He said upon reunion that he'd read our stars and it said that after the initial power struggle.... we'd be fine. ha ha. There was slamming down of phones and i got so angry at times and really gave him what for. But we kept coming back, kept trying to understand what was going on and had to make adjustments to the fantasy that the reunion was not fulfilling in either of us. Reality struck.

Originally Posted by tlee70

Sometimes I just want to apologize for my exisitence and say...sorry to have upset everyone. I was confused ...still am some days, is that understandable? forgivable??

Of course its forgivable. Again, in the Primal Wound you will be able to read it and say "well I never, thats me and yes, I recognise that" its kind of like coming home and funnily enough, her follow up book is called exactly that, Coming Home to Self. I think both are amazing books. Get yourself a copy and start to feel more comfortable in your own skin. Most adoptees if not all share your feelings - they have had to try and justify their existence, as why would their first mother leave if they were "good babies" and what do I have to do to make sure this second mother (amom) doesn't leave? Thats where the confusion and the false self comes in, as the adoptee tries everything in their power to make sure they are never left again.

It makes for fascinating reading and Verrier gets literally thousands of emails/letters thanking her for validating their feelings. Please feel free to be one of them and I hope it lifts the lid off of your hurt and pain. My son and I are rejoicing because of her. let me know how you get on.

(((Hugs)))
Jannyroo

[rainmon]

Jannyroo, I just want to thank-you so very much for taking the time to write and explain alot of this, it sounds like Varrier's books have been good for your relationship. I am just so glad some of this is being addressed somewhere and someone has actually applied some of it and found her information helpul to their own reunion. I have those books on order now at our library.
Thank-you again for keeping us informed of the help out there that we may be unaware of ....and also for your words of encouragment. (((hugs))) Rain

[tlee70]

I would like to thank all of you for responding to me ...considering I sortof barged in on this thread LOL. I couldn't help but relate to so much of what was being said ...that I had to chime in from my point of view.
I would like to clarify a few things with my reunions. My bmom, I have known since I was around 21. I contacted her through the adoption disclosure unit due to a medical emergency with my child.....that was roughly 15yrs ago. I truly believe that the relationship that I have with her will never go beyond the occasional contact. She has shut down emotionally and I believe she is one of the women that cannot come to terms with trauma in her life....she does not or has ever thought of me as her daughter (at least not out loud) and has stated that she is too old to be my mother. That being said..she is only 14yrs older than me. I once sent her the "reason's why bmother's deny contact" article. Have you read this?? I'm sure you have....it's very indepth regarding a bmom's perspective. I sent it to her, to let her know that she wasn't alone. Her response...."very little of it related to her". It's obvious to me that she is so far in denial with her emotions that I don't believe she will ever come through it...15yrs..and it's been a ROCKY road. There is alot more to my story with my bmom, but I have wasted far too much emotional energy ...I just can't anymore, I need to protect myself. I would never dream that she would read a book like Primal wound....she can't get past her own pain, let alone see mine. I have accepted this, even though its dissappointing.
The bparent that I was actually talking about was my bfather. I find this reunion very confusing at times, but I have slowly started to withdraw from him as well. He is the one that showed the letter to my sibs...as an explanation as to why I was taking a time out. The letter definately was not intended for them to read...and there were things in it that I def would never have wrote had I known that they would read it..ex...how I would never be a daughter to him, like his own children were..etc.. I believe he was angry when he showed it too them.... It's been a few years since that happened, shortly after the birth of my third child, so I clearly wasn't of "sound mind" lol..yet, I felt all those emotions...I guess maybe I was looking for that unconditional love that I certainly never felt growing up. I apologized for what I said..but deep down, I was very dissappointed that he never wanted to talk about the letter..how I felt...and of course, the impact it had on my relationship with his whole family. Since then it has been strained...we talk occasionally, but I know he really isn't wanting to work on the relationship...he's happy with the way things are. Again..I would never dream of him reading the book Primal Wound....I think, in some ways...rainmon reminds me of him and his wife...the anger that I hear ...I hear lack of understanding..and withdraw.. Does this make sense??
I really appreciate all the advice on this thread. Jannyroo...I am going to read the book. I have heard about it many times over the years and have done much reading myself...but not this one. I have stayed clear of it lol....many people totally discredit this book..interesting isn't it??? all of the quotes I have read ring very true. I guess people don't want to believe the profound impact adoption has on adoptees. Even adoptees deny it.

As an afterthought...one comment that my bfather wrote to me in an email after I sent that letter...."I will not be manipulated into feeling guilty"....boy..that was a blow...knocked me right off my feet...that was enough for me to put my running shoes on.

[keds]

tlee, Hi! I read your latest post and admire you for still standing upright! "manipulated into feeling guilty"??? I've felt guilty pretty much every day for the last 27 years so I can't see where that comment comes from. Also, Primal Wound - I didn't like it at first but that was because it was the first book I read after hearing from my bson. It is to the point and made me realize that the whole adoption wasn't just about ME! IMO that is the problem with some people in the triad - my feelings, my hurt, etc. when really I think the only "innocent" ones are the adoptees. My bson tells me that he has had a great life, which at times hurts, to be honest, and yet, my "soul" feels that he is saying it to make me feel better. I can't imagine not feeling the way outlined in Primal Wound. I wish you all the best and hope you stay in touch.

(((hugs)))

[rainmon]

yes ...tlee. it does make sence to me,,,,she seems to be withdrawing... and so .......we seem to be too.
I feel that too....and I don't like it.
and I know when she started to get really emotional with her
e-mails .....it seemed to freak him out. I really don't think most men do well with all the emotional stuff. and its nothing againts you....or her..... it's just how a lot of men are.....
some times it takes years of marriage to find that place with a man.....and it does not just happen overnight,
or even after a few months of a close relatonship with some some marriages..... sometimes I think adoptee's want things to happen quicker then is at a natural pace for a found parent and I realize how hard it would be to take things slow to get to know someone first.... but they just have to realize that a lot of people cannot just talk about their feelings and private thoughts as openly as other people. it can't just be demanded or forced out, until they are ready to share.....
some people have a hard time saying what they feel....or even relating to what other people are trying to express to them.
so ... the only thing I can say.....is to take it slow.
as some people just cannot express their feelings on demand.
when my husband did not answer his daughters emotional letters the way she wanted.....it did not mean he did not love her....it just meant he was raised to suppress his feelings and it has always been very hard for him to exress his.......so it just may take some time.
but I fear she does not want to take the time. she expected an emotional reply that he was not emotionally equipt to give I guess......... and she seems not to forgive him that.
like I say....even with some marriages it takes years to form a close emotional bond with some people...... so....I feel bad for both sides of it. I understand, feel and relate to both.

[tlee70]

I have been told by his wife and family exactly what you have said....to a T!!! I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying...my bfather is even more like that due to his profession. I guess my problem is that if you can't communicate...even that you have a hard time expression how you feel...how can you expect the relationship to move forward?? especially in one wrought with such bumps in the road?
As an adoptee...there are many times that open communication is so important....how do we move past that? I have almost given up on repairing the damage....
We don't have the benefit of many years of history to know each other without talking about it......he doesn't "get" that.

[rainmon]

I know at one point I noticed my husband was a bit hesitant to spend any time alone with her...... as he must of feared all the deep emotional type questions, and that always seemed to happen when they were alone. so he seemed to be avoiding those times. which was sad that it was coming to that.... I don't know if she noticed . I did though, and when I asked him about it, he said it was just so uncomfortable for him and thought the relationship was juststill so new and that he hardly knew her, when I said well maybe you could get to know her better by talking more, and he just said it would take much more time for that, and he felt he had answered all her questions on the first FtoF. and couldn't understand why she kept bringing up the past things again.
I guess things seemed to be moving too fast for him, now that I look back. and all the advice we hear now about taking things slow, we did not know about at first, so we did not know we could slow things down and it did seem he was getting pretty overwhelmed and needed it.
yes....the reunion was moving way to fast and now it could be at a standstill because of it ....maybe??

[shadow riderer]

tlee, I don't really have anything to add, but I kind of know where you are coming from. I reunited with my bmom 20 years ago. She, like your bmom, still has a difficult time telling people that I am her daughter. I'm not shutting the door on her either. I'm just no longer going to put my self in a position to be hurt any more. It's been 20 years of me reaching out for acceptance, and 20 years of her denying the past. Reunion does take the effort of both parties, and I can't force her to face the reality of our situation. Until she faces reality and her pain, I don't see any kind of healthy relationship as a possibility. Time to take care of myself and focus on those closest to me. It makes me sad, but I've accepted it and am at peace with it.
I'm also in a similar situation with my Bdad, in that communicating with him is sometimes difficult. I sometimes seem to be about six months ahead of him in dealing with the emotional stages of reunion, and then sometimes he just passes me by. On top of that, his wife isn't at all happy about the situation, which puts an added strain on him. I found my bdad in a horrible marriage, which is now on the verge of divorce, not because of me, but showing upin his life shure didn't help the situation. So, now, here I am dealing with all these crazy adoption issues and emotions with a bdad in the total emotional crazyness of a pending divorce. Talk about difficult communication. Sheesh! As if men weren't hard enough to talk to.

I guess that I'm kind of learning with my bdad, and especially our difficult situation, that sometimes it's better if I just keep my emotions to myself for now. I've sort of noticed that a lot of those emotions are really my emotions to deal with and work through anyway. I'm a 42 year old adoptee, who sometimes just wants her "daddy" to fix it (it meaning the past). That's just me though, and our situations are probably a lot different in respect to our Bdads. You know, I don't understand my Bdad any more than I do my husband, but I know they both love me.

[rainmon]

shadow riderer,
did your Dad get to come to see you? I know you were all struggling with that future visit, and whether he would be allowed to come alone or even at all...... did you get to have some time with him? I hope things went well for you.

[tlee70]

Shadow riderer, I have read many of your posts over the years and we have many things in common. Do you have any contact with your bmom now? I have had more contact in the last few years than previously. 2 visits in the last two years...versus, two visits in 13 years...so this is progress. We seem to be at a place where there isn't any outward