[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

My brothers and sisters despised him then and would continually change the date of the visits and he'd call me and talk about killing himself and how if he didn't see the family, that his death would be on my hands.

And a codependent person moves heaven and earth so the person of interest does not do harm to himself or drink or drug or whatever..
Like a small animal on a wheel going around and around..

I'd get bros and sisters to agree to visit and then I'd spend the week before the visit throwing things, screaming at my family, completely insane with fear. I'd call and tell my friends what possessions of mine I wanted them to have in case I didn't come back from his house. I would pray that I lived the weekend. God, it was soooo palpable Jackie - that fear. It was like a living, breathing thing.

That’s terrible..
Trapped..

From The Language of Letting Go.. Melody Beattie.. page 224… a lesson for all of us

Saying No

For many of us, the most difficult word to say is one of the shortest and easiest in the vocabulary: No. Go ahead, say it aloud: No.

No – simple to pronounce, hard to say. We’re afraid people won’t like us, or we feel guilty. We may believe that a “good” employee, child, parent, spouse, or Christian never says no.

The problem is, if we don’t learn to say no, we stop liking ourselves and the people we always try to please. We may even punish others our of resentment.

When do we say no? When no is what we really mean.

When we learn to say no, we stop lying. People can trust us, and we can trust ourselves. All sorts of good things happen when we start saying what we mean.

If we’re scared to say no, we can buy some time. We can take a break, rehearse the word, and go back and say no. We don’t have to offer long explanations for our decisions.

When we can say no, we can say yes to the good. Our no’s and our yes’s begin to be taken seriously. We gain control of ourselves. And we learn a secret: “No” isn’t really that hard to say.

Today, I will say no if that is what I mean..


The victim mode.. the it was done to me mode.. those first steppers at the first step table.. don’t get it that they can say no to the one acting out..
Such a powerful thing to understand.. the parent that is a drunk that needs to be protected needs to feel and do the consequences of their actions.. but those ones living in it and have not seen what is really going down don’t get it.. that they can say no..
That you could have said no to your dad and not have been responsible for what may have happened if you had of said no..

Interesting..

And I didn't understand that I could just stop seeing him. When I did of course, he turned his games on my siblings and then turned on me. I'm sure they've never forgiven me for that. It was okay when I was under the bus but now they were under it.

And a person (as Beattie writes) ends up disliking those that are involved in the situation and ends up disliking themselves..

The sad thing is the thing that precipitated my freedom was the death of my brother "X". It took that for me so see the truth and begin to free myself. 30 years old and still daddy's little chump girl; daddy's little pin cushion. Sigh......maaaan what a game he ran on us - me and mine.

My parents did it to me.. not until I learned from the books I quote from and from meetings and sponsors did I learn what was really going down.. what we need to keep passing on.. aka the twelfth step..

Page 187 Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps..

Step Twelve

Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other codependents, and to practice these principals in all our affairs..

The comment..

“Oh, I’ve been a victim all my life,” he said.
“No, Joe,” she said. “Your whole life is ahead of you.”

--Joe and the Volcano

It's like what you were saying Jackie about running in place. That's what it was like before I checked into the hospital and surrendered myself to the care of psychiatrists. I was running in place, trying to be Shiney White Janey who didn't surrender two children; who was an upright citizen from respectability land and knew how to bake excellent desserts and knew how to clean up her alcoholic husband's vomit without complaining and knew how to be dutiful to a psychopath.

And did not know how to say no.. just like me..



Jackie

[RavenSong]

Guys, I'm catching up on reading all the threads I've missed the past couple days. We've been having a LOT of snow here in the Sierra mountains, and we lost our power for about 30 hours. It just came back up, so I'm trying to read as fast as I can...just in case it goes down again.

Anyway, if I seem to disappear, it's not because I don't love you all...it's because PG&E doesn't maintain their electrical equipment very well.

I'll be back in a few minutes to post. But wanted to let everyone know that I'm not ignoring any of you.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Jackie! Hey All!

And a special "hey" to Raven. I was wondering what happened. I was envisioning a fire in your part of sunny California. You guys sure do get some crazy weather-related stuff out there!! Glad you're okay! Missed ya!!

Jackie

The problem is, if we don’t learn to say no, we stop liking ourselves and the people we always try to please. We may even punish others our of resentment.

Oh man! Was I ever good at this one. I'd forgotten about that part of me; martyr Janey. Maaaannn what a witch!!!

I just posted to Monster about Christmas miseries. Laughing here (not at Monster but at myself). Back in Shiney White Janey days I really took the respectable act to extremes. I got into this rediculous habit of wrapping my presents in the most elaborate fasion. I'd scour the malls for lush, rich papers with perfectly matching bows - even going so far as to try to match the wrapping scheme to the personality or likes of the person my present was for. ARRRRRRRGGGHHH!! I'm telling ya folks it didn't get no whiter white-girl than that!!!

Anyhoo...one day I wrapped a stunning masterpiece resplendent with a thick linen paper with actualy leaves pressed into it and two vividly lime and lilac colored ribbons (I actually took a bow making class and added my homemade bow on top of the box). So I took it to the inlaws and proudly displayed my wrapped gift, moving all the other boxes out of the way so that it would shine like the North Star itself. Then my 2 year old nephew promptly went over and jumped on top the box and crushed it!! LOL!!!

I can laugh my patoot off now but at the time, I flew off the handle totally devastated! I tell ya people, when I look back at who I was those years ago, it actually scares me!! (And I wonder why I ended up in the bin).

Never fear though! I am cured. Now I am no longer shiney and white. Now I'm a beiger shade of pale and I wrap my packages in whatever paper's on sale and you're lucky if you get a bow - let alone a gift tag. Ususally I just write the name in pen on the paper itself. And I also gave up Christmas cards. What's that song by Cream? "I feel free"

On a more serious note though, my inability to say "no" cost me two children. In that way, it is heartwrenching.

When we learn to say no, we stop lying. People can trust us, and we can trust ourselves.

Amen to this! I do know myself better now and I try to no longer make impossible demands of myself that neither I or others can live up to. In the end, who am I to make such demands anyway?

I have always liked the 12th Step. Carrying the message to others. That's what we're doing in here isn't it? Carrying a message of freedom and hope to those women like us. Such a good thing that.

Oh and thanks for quoting Joe vs. The Volcano.

Once I did owe my soul to the company store; now I just revel in knowing that God loves me.

:-)

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

I grew up trying to control the situations in my home.. I was so scared that my mom would flip out.. get angry..
I still can not stand anger.. hate it.. I get panic attacks when anger is present.. in my home..
I run and hide and do not want to go on.. If I fight with my husband I go to divorce.. I am going to leave this life as it is and get on with the next one because this one is crap and awful and no one loves me..

Jackie, I am scared of other peoples' anger, not so much my own, but that of family members and friends. I grew up feeling terrified of my mother, of her moods, of her judgments, of her expectations, of her anger. If she was angry at a situation or at someone else, her anger would inevitably fall on me. Sometimes I was fairly adept at feeling the change in the air, and I could escape to my bedroom and into my books. But often I was too late to escape...

I have a hard time dealing with anger in my own home. Like you, I tend to panic. Yesterday, we lost all our electrical power...it was off for 30 hours. And I started ranting and raving about how I hate living here in the mountains...how I miss the ocean. First, I started railing against the electric company, and soon I focused my anger and outburst on my partner. And then I went to that horrid place you talk about, this life is all crap and I want to get on to the next one, blah, blah, blah. I scared myself... I felt so hopeless, so helpless.

So I sat all alone in my living room last night and read the first three chapters in Beattie's Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps. I sat there with a battery-operated headlamp on my head, and really read those chapters with a new understanding, I think.

Today, I know and accept that I am powerless over others--that my life has become unmanageable. I don't know how I'll feel tomorrow, but for today I think I've done Step One. And I think I'm ready to start looking at Step Two...

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

From Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps.. Melody Beattie.. page 25.. Step One.

Often, this Step puts us in touch with our feelings – feelings of fear, hurt, or shame. It puts us in touch with grief. At first, this Step can feel dark and frightening. It doesn’t have to, not for long. It renders us powerless over what we cannot control, so we can become empowered. Once we accept whatever loss or area of powerlessness we’re facing, we’re free to feel and deal with our feelings, then move forward with life.

I think that's what happened to me last night--I accepted my powerlessness: over the electricity, over my partner, over current economic conditions, over where I'm living, over my relatives, over everything. God, I just can't seem to control any of it anymore! And I'm the one who's getting hurt by insisting I can make things better, when in reality I cannot. The unmanageability is inside me...it's that feeling that I'm going crazy.

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

I can remember a therapist telling me that when someone can not control their lives around them they attack others.. my dad would attack me.. He would check to see if my home was clean.. he would shake his head when I would fall from grace.
And I was terrified of him when he was in his prime..
I hated his judgment.. hated it..

Been there, done that... I think your therapist was very wise. I think most of my mom's anger when I was a child came out of her not being able to control her life. And I know that last night, my fit of anger came because I could not control the things around me...

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

I grieve this inability of his to accept me as I was and to rejoice that I had finally bought a home.. mom was upset that the home was not on a ravine that was across the road.. I felt bad about that as well..

Jackie, this sounds like the proverbial "are you proud of me now?", "do you love me now?" The adult child of a dysfunctional family... Whew, I do this all the time. And the results are never what I want them to be.

When I studied to be a physician, I wanted to be a pediatric oncologist. My dad didn't think that was good enough...he wanted me to be a surgeon, because that's where "the big bucks are". When I left med school, he didn't have to worry about that one anymore. I didn't have to listen to his judgments anymore on what type of doctor I should be.

When I first became a premed student, my parents were proud of me, I think. I was doing it all on my own, with no financial assistance from either of them...just my own student loans and grants and part-time jobs. But when I was actually accepted into med school, suddenly they both had their own ideas of what I should be. And I felt like I didn't meet their approval--so I just gave up in the end. (There were other reasons, as well.)

It's a hard thing to accept that we will never gain our parents' approval about anything. I'm 54 years old, and I still hold onto that glimmer of hope that says, "maybe one day..." I know it's never going to come, but the hope is still inside me.

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

On a more serious note though, my inability to say "no" cost me two children. In that way, it is heartwrenching.

And how we regret that.. and how we punish ourselves..
And we need to forgive ourselves.. need it’s a need.. so we can just get on with it..
The rest of our lives..
And it is like the gifts.. we try and do it perfect.. but we can’t.. circumstances dictate a lot..

I have always liked the 12th Step. Carrying the message to others. That's what we're doing in here isn't it? Carrying a message of freedom and hope to those women like us. Such a good thing that.

Codependency is my core learning.. I do not addict on food or drugs or whatever any more.. I addict on mind things.. sometimes bad mind things.. so it does keep me on track coming here and working my twelfth step.. doing the AW..
And I love it.. I just love the mind.. and I want to pass on what I know.. what I have learned since we first met Janey..

Love Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

RavenSong

I am scared of other peoples' anger, not so much my own, but that of family members and friends. I grew up feeling terrified of my mother, of her moods, of her judgments, of her expectations, of her anger. If she was angry at a situation or at someone else, her anger would inevitably fall on me. Sometimes I was fairly adept at feeling the change in the air, and I could escape to my bedroom and into my books. But often I was too late to escape...

I am still afraid to stay up late because it is against some rule that was drummed into me..
I walk around in the middle of the nite and worry that someone is going to come out and yell at me..
Its so weird.. I know I have a right to just wander around.. and hubby says he no longer works so me waking him up is no big deal..
But still..
I can hear my dad saying.. “Go to bed Jackie!”
And I can hear my hubby telling me that I woke him up and he had to get up at five o’clock to go and work fourteen hours.. and if he gets fired its all my fault..
Darn..
But then its on me again.. I stayed in the situation with hubby.. I could have sorted a better way.. I finally got my own bedroom after the kids moved out and I no longer disturbed him when he had a fourteen hour day ahead of him..
But my dad.. is still in there..

I have a hard time dealing with anger in my own home. Like you, I tend to panic. Yesterday, we lost all our electrical power...it was off for 30 hours. And I started ranting and raving about how I hate living here in the mountains...how I miss the ocean. First, I started railing against the electric company, and soon I focused my anger and outburst on my partner. And then I went to that horrid place you talk about, this life is all crap and I want to get on to the next one, blah, blah, blah. I scared myself... I felt so hopeless, so helpless.

The either or.. scenario..
Panic mode.. I have to go today and get more x-rays or whatever they do.. radiology..
They are watching some ‘stuff’ on my body.. and making sure it is not growing and growing..
I am scared and I don’t want to go.. but I have to go to this in case there is ‘stuff’ growing.. which there is not..
But I want to go and hide.. coward that I am..

After I post this I am going to get ready.. wish me luck.

So I sat all alone in my living room last night and read the first three chapters in Beattie's Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps. I sat there with a battery-operated headlamp on my head, and really read those chapters with a new understanding, I think.

Melody Beattie is a wise woman.. very very wise woman..
I have read all of her books.. I have digested them.. I have typed up them.. and I thank her with all my heart for writing down her words..

IMO that book (Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps) is her personal twelve steps on codependency.. and she was willing to share them with the world..

I do not think we are ever done with the twelve steps.. every time we do them there is something new..

Today, I know and accept that I am powerless over others--that my life has become unmanageable. I don't know how I'll feel tomorrow, but for today I think I've done Step One. And I think I'm ready to start looking at Step Two...

From Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps..

Step Two

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity….

page 30

The Second Step puts us on track – a new track – a course that holds more power and direction than we have on our own. It is the transition Step. It takes us from where we are to where we want to go..

All we are asked to do now is believe. In fact, all we are asked to do is “come to believe.” We do that by opening our minds and hearts and connecting with other recovering people..


Soooo we are powerless.. over people places and things and we can not control..
If a woman/man has been in hiding.. keeping secrets.. the joining with others that really get it that they are powerless and they can not control.. takes a person to another place.. and gives us permission to finally share what we have gone through.. openly..
I can remember Bradshaw saying or writing.. that our secrets are all secrets.. and sharing them connects us..

I know keeping the secret about giving my son up separated me from my sister.. Separated me from my friends..
And I could not understand why no one wanted to get intimate with me.. not really intimate..
And all along it was me.. I was controlling it..

Page 34

“I kept wanting to go completely crazy. I never did, but I thought it would feel good because then I could express all the stuff inside me. I didn’t know that’s exactly what I needed to do.”

And this stuff is deep.. and this stuff renders us vulnerable..
But we can protect ourselves we can say no..

I think that's what happened to me last night--I accepted my powerlessness: over the electricity, over my partner, over current economic conditions, over where I'm living, over my relatives, over everything.

Its such a wonderful thing to accept..
That control thing makes us nuts.. gives us hurts inside..

It's a hard thing to accept that we will never gain our parents' approval about anything. I'm 54 years old, and I still hold onto that glimmer of hope that says, "maybe one day..." I know it's never going to come, but the hope is still inside me.

We get approval from our peers.. from those who have walked the walk..
We accept that some people are never ever going to get it..
Ah.. the lessons of the desert..

page 19... Further Along the Road Less Traveled.. Scott Peck..

...So the myth is true. We really can not go back to Eden.. We must go
forward through the desert. But the journey is hard and consciousness
is often painful. And so most people stop their journey as quickly as
they can. They find what looks like a safe place, burrow into the
sand, and stay there rather than go forward through the painful
desert, which is filled with cactuses and thorns and sharp rocks..


Even if most people have been taught at one time or another that
"those things that hurt, instruct" (to borrow Benjamin Franklin's
phrase), the education of the desert is so painful they discontinue it
as early as they can..


Senility is not just a biological disorder. It can also be a
manifestation of a refusal to grow up, a psychological disorder
preventable by anyone who embarks on a lifetime pattern of
pyschospiritual growth. Those who stop learning and growing early in
their lives and stop changing and become fixed often lapse into what
is sometimes called their "second childhood". Then become whiny and
demanding and self-centered. But this isn't because they have entered
their second childhood. They have never left their first, and the
veneer of adulthood is worn thin, revealing the emotional child that
lurks underneath..



Growing up Painfully..

When we were banished form Paradise, we were banished forever. We can
never go back to Eden. If you remember the story, the way is barred
but cherubim's and a flaming sword..


We cannot go back. We can only go forward..


To go back to Eden would be like trying to return to our mother's
womb, to infancy.. Since we cannot go back to the womb or infancy, we
must grow up.. We can only go forward through the desert of life,
making our way painfully over parched and barren ground into
increasingly.. deeper levels of consciousness..


This is an extremely important truth because a great deal of human
pathology, including the abuse of drugs, arises out of the attempt to
get back to Eden.. At cocktail parties we tend to need at least that
one drink to help diminish our sef-consciousness, to diminish our
shyness. It works, right? And if we get just the right amount of pot
or coke or some combination thereof, for a few minutes or a few hours
we may regain temporarily the lost sense of oneness with the universe.
We may recapture that deliciously warm and fuzzy sense of being one
with nature again..


Of course, the feeling never lasts very long and the price isn't
usually worth it.. So the myth is true.. We cannot go back to Eden..


Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Raven!

Sometimes I was fairly adept at feeling the change in the air, and I could escape to my bedroom and into my books.

I'm not sure now which thread I posted on on this same subject but on that thread I called this the "trip wire" existence. The wary, watchful eye. I have never been sure if it is a gift or a curse. On some level it keeps us safe but on another it keeps us removed from ourselves and others. It's hard to shake though - at least that's been my experience.

And then I went to that horrid place you talk about, this life is all crap and I want to get on to the next one, blah, blah, blah. I scared myself... I felt so hopeless, so helpless

And afterwards so drained. It's as if someone cuts into our psyche with an invisible knife and lets out all this fear and self-loathing. I have been that way a lot lately as I've watched so many of the people I love up here lose their homes, their jobs, their pride, their faith in government to fix it. I get scared then because I also feel helpless. I have no money to throw at the problem and so it seems impossible to overcome. The old tape, "If only I had a couple million in the bank." Sigh....in many ways money is still my god.

And I think I'm ready to start looking at Step Two

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Came to believe. Those first the 3 words hit me....always hit me. It's not "decided to believe" or "fought to believe" or any other connotation of personal power. It's came to believe. To me that implies traveling the path and slowly realizing that we were changing; that we'd found a quiet wisdom we hadn't had before and that we gradually accepted that wisdom. A peaceful kind of coming to believe.

It's a hard thing to accept that we will never gain our parents' approval ......I know it's never going to come, but the hope is still inside me

I am remembering once my hubby going to his mom's to install a floor for her. His parents are quite wealthy and expect their children to either be in the military or be brain surgeons. Hubby always chose his own path which caused great strain with his parents. He always wanted to own his own business which he did for quite a few years. But owning his own business took up a great deal of his time and he never got the PhD his parents had mapped for him or the top-brass title they would've preffered.

Anyway we were at the in-laws this particular day and there's hubby laying flooring and his mom is talking to me about a relative and she says, "I just don't get it. I mean she wants to be a hairdresser. It's rediculous! If a person doesn't have a college education then they're nobody really."

(Shaking my head still at the picture of hubby stopping in the middle of his work and looking back at his mother with absolute disgust. She'd just called him nobody and she didn't even realize it.)

I just shrugged and said, "Doctor or ditch digger. A person should love their children just the same."

She looked pretty embarrassed when she realized why I'd said it but it was too late. It was one of those things a person says and then it just stays out there coloring their relationship with the offended party.

Sadly, hubby deliberately left one of the floorboards loose so that it creaks everytime they walk over it. Sigh....he's not the most accommodating person when it comes to being the better person. He basically gives people as good as he gets. (Which is why I love him if I'm really honest!)

[Monster]

Lyndz,

I must say i read your story and i started to cry my heart bleeds for you. I see allot of myself in your story i saw these things happen to my mother cause of her drug use my father was a geat man but the drug dealers were not, my daughter is a product of rape and i feel the hatred and betrayal of it and of others and how they use to judge me and my reaction to things. I found my rapist and contacted him in some weird way he still has controll over me i know why you are the way you are with your step dad i cant excplain why we do it. Please know one thing that i have come to realize you are a beautiful and loveing women stronger then any man or thing i look up to you and your strenght i envy your honesty and openess and i wish i had the strength you seem to carry so easily, i hold you in my heart as my seceret hero you will be a great mother a loveing and kind mother and you are very smart and very loved i send you all my love and prayers i pray for your protection and happiness thank you for sharing it has really touched me..Im sorry way off subject in this thread.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

From The Language of Letting Go.. Melody Beattie.. page 224… a lesson for all of us

Saying No

The problem is, if we don’t learn to say no, we stop liking ourselves and the people we always try to please. We may even punish others our of resentment. When do we say no? When no is what we really mean. When we learn to say no, we stop lying. People can trust us, and we can trust ourselves. All sorts of good things happen when we start saying what we mean.

I think this is so incredibly important. "If we learn to say no, we stop lying." My mom and I were just talking about this subject a couple weeks ago. For some reason, I learned to say no to some of my mother's requests or demands around 20 years ago, probably as a result of joining a 12-Step program. She told me recently that that's one of the things she admires in me...that I don't commit to anything that I do not intend to follow through on. One of my siblings is having a terrible time with our mother right now. He is unable to say no to her; he volunteers or agrees to do something, and when he doesn't follow through, he goes into hiding... He hasn't spoken to her for the last couple months, and I think it's breaking her heart. The old issue of passive aggressiveness... Unfortunately, this is one of my mom's pet peeves in life, people who aren't true to their word.

I worked for this one company in New Mexico as managing editor for a while, and it used to drive me up the wall when an employee would say, "yes" to a project, and then not get the job done by deadline. I practically begged them to be upfront with me before assigning them a new project. If they didn't think they could get a piece turned in on time, to please tell me they needed help with it, or to even just turn down the project. If I can't count on someone to be true to their word, I lose all trust of that person, no matter if it is a coworker, friend, or family member.

I think it is absolutely crucial to say what we mean and mean what we say...

P.S. Since my mom had her stroke, it is harder for me to say no to her. I give her more leeway than I did before her stroke... I know I'm not going to have her in my life for very much longer, so I pamper her a little bit, I think. I still try not to commit to things I know I can't do. I'm a "work in progress", though, lol...

[Jackiejdajda]

Monster

Im sorry way off subject in this thread.

Never.. I am glad you are here and welcome..

As I wrote on the other thread I am going to be lost soon.. Ten inches of snow coming at us.. and I have not done a lick of xmas shopping..

I think I will be giving the kids money this xmas..

Love Jackie.. who is going to reply to the other posts when all is well with me..

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Came to believe. Those first the 3 words hit me....always hit me. It's not "decided to believe" or "fought to believe" or any other connotation of personal power. It's came to believe. To me that implies traveling the path and slowly realizing that we were changing; that we'd found a quiet wisdom we hadn't had before and that we gradually accepted that wisdom. A peaceful kind of coming to believe.

When I see regret.. I want to say over and over.. “You can not go back and change it.. its done.”
I think that when we do keep fighting it.. we are not doing the second step.. we are still running in place..
The resentments of the ones that control adoption today.. or who we think controls adoption..

Those mean spirited people who take babies and cheat and spend money and do all the bad things that life has to offer..
What a way out.. hatred.. and what a lost place..
I can remember announcing on alt.adoption years ago.. that I approached the agency.. I was the one that asked them to handle the adoption..
And at that moment I was standing knee deep in the flow of life and paying attention to the truth..
And God helped me that day.. I know it..

I mean she wants to be a hairdresser. It's rediculous! If a person doesn't have a college education then they're nobody really."

I was nobody.. for years and years.. I believed myself to be a nobody..
I left school at sixteen.. I was waiting for my birthday and I can remember sitting in math and waiting to go and see the principal..
And he told me I would be a waitress for the rest of my life..
And I was a waitress in Florida..

(Shaking my head still at the picture of hubby stopping in the middle of his work and looking back at his mother with absolute disgust. She'd just called him nobody and she didn't even realize it.)

I just shrugged and said, "Doctor or ditch digger. A person should love their children just the same."

Ha..

She looked pretty embarrassed when she realized why I'd said it but it was too late. It was one of those things a person says and then it just stays out there coloring their relationship with the offended party.

Sadly, hubby deliberately left one of the floorboards loose so that it creaks everytime they walk over it. Sigh....he's not the most accommodating person when it comes to being the better person. He basically gives people as good as he gets. (Which is why I love him if I'm really honest!)

My mom would have many dreams for me.. and I tried.. oh lordy I tried..
But I could not do it.. the set up was so bad.. I could not be more than..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

RavenSong

I think this is so incredibly important. "If we learn to say no, we stop lying."

Yes.. Its what jumped out at me..

We stop lying to ourselves.. we find out who we are..

My mom and I were just talking about this subject a couple weeks ago. For some reason, I learned to say no to some of my mother's requests or demands around 20 years ago, probably as a result of joining a 12-Step program. She told me recently that that's one of the things she admires in me...that I don't commit to anything that I do not intend to follow through on. One of my siblings is having a terrible time with our mother right now. He is unable to say no to her; he volunteers or agrees to do something, and when he doesn't follow through, he goes into hiding... He hasn't spoken to her for the last couple months, and I think it's breaking her heart. The old issue of passive aggressiveness... Unfortunately, this is one of my mom's pet peeves in life, people who aren't true to their word.

And we can not make it right.. stepping away from that is beyond difficult.. IMO
We love our loved ones.. and we want to make it all better.. and I think a lot of us were trained to interfere.. with the others that were living in our worlds..

But we need to develop our own ‘self’ and not the self of the family.. Not what dogma wants.. what we think we are supposed to do..
We need to change our thinking and become individuals.. Individual thinkers..
That has got to be the task at hand..
I know that when I learned how to say no I had to learn about what my values were..
Individuation..
Bradshaw writes that.. “Your inner child often doesn’t know what he believes, because he was coerced and brainwashed in secular and church school”..
I add “Because he was coerced and brainwashed in the family while learning how to become a functioning person in this life.”

I think when we sort our own values.. saying no becomes part of our life..


From Homecoming.. John Bradshaw.. page 242

Practice Values Clarification

Your values are your intellectual boundaries. Your inner child often doesn’t know what he believes, because he was coerced and brainwashed in secular and church school..

The book Values Clarification by Sidney Simon, Leland Howe, and Howard Kirschenbaum is a classic in the field. These authors posit that a value is not a value unless it has seven elements. They are:

1. it must be chosen.
2. There must be alternatives.
3. You must know the consequences of your choice.
4. Once chosen you prize and cherish it.
5. You are willing to publicly proclaim it.
6. You act on this value.
7. You act on it consistently and repeatedly.

Make a list of your most cherished beliefs – your Ten commandments.

I worked for this one company in New Mexico as managing editor for a while, and it used to drive me up the wall when an employee would say, "yes" to a project, and then not get the job done by deadline. I practically begged them to be upfront with me before assigning them a new project. If they didn't think they could get a piece turned in on time, to please tell me they needed help with it, or to even just turn down the project. If I can't count on someone to be true to their word, I lose all trust of that person, no matter if it is a coworker, friend, or family member.

And in turn we lie to ourselves..

P.S. Since my mom had her stroke, it is harder for me to say no to her. I give her more leeway than I did before her stroke... I know I'm not going to have her in my life for very much longer, so I pamper her a little bit, I think. I still try not to commit to things I know I can't do. I'm a "work in progress", though, lol...

We learn..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Everybody!

Jackie

What a way out.. hatred.. and what a lost place........and I can remember sitting in math and waiting to go and see the principal..
And he told me I would be a waitress for the rest of my life

I thought these two tied into each other. Hatred and the looking down on others. I often wonder if those kind are so afraid of their own failures that they have to simply project those failures onto everyone else. Gosh....don't you almost wish some principal would've said that to us about one of our daughters? That way we could've spit back, "Well she may end up a waitress sir but at least SHE actually works for a living!!"

Arrogant people. IMO they are the slime under the rock in the cesspool. I cannot abide by them.

My mom would have many dreams for me.. and I tried.. oh lordy I tried.. But I could not do it.. the set up was so bad.. I could not be more than

Hmmm. If someone were to ask me to describe you in terms of career; I would tell them you are a great philosopher; one the greatest thinkers I've ever come across.

I can't think of a nobler profession bud! Or something higher to strive for than understanding of oneself in order to extend compassion to others. That's you in a nutshell! You and many of the other brave souls I've met here on all points of this alleged Triangle.

(I do not care for that Triangle. Never cared for it in AlAnon either. It is too sharp of a geometric shape to fit my oh-so-circular reasoning! LOL! Of course, I am not really sure what shape life's journey is. That would make for spectacular debate!)

As for what my parents wanted for me. Ehhh. If they wanted it that bad, they should've gone and gotten it. Ya know. Life for oneself in order to be happy and in turn be kind to others. Makes sense to me.

Raven I wanted to apologize. Sometimes I forget that you're still struggling with issues over your mom's health. How is that going? And also sending healing thoughts your way. It's got to be doubly taxing to your peace of mind at this time of year.

Love all you guys!

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

I thought these two tied into each other. Hatred and the looking down on others. I often wonder if those kind are so afraid of their own failures that they have to simply project those failures onto everyone else.

And why is visual success the criteria?
Why are we as a whole so shallow? But then it was about survival.. I could not have gotten a job at the post office.. and when it came down to me getting a job if I had of kept my son.. no job would have been found..
I had to lie.. lie and lie some more..
I would fill in the job questions with graduated from High school etc..

I hated that..

Last nite Cold Case had a show about stewardesses in the sixties..
When I went to Miami when I was pregnant I got a stewardess job.. while pregnant..
Don’t ask how I got through the physical..
But there I was pregnant and staying thin and working very hard..
But the dogma around life and women and pretty and stuff like that was horrible.. just horrible..
And I felt I was just missing the mark.. and I had to keep running..

Gosh....don't you almost wish some principal would've said that to us about one of our daughters? That way we could've spit back, "Well she may end up a waitress sir but at least SHE actually works for a living!!"

I tuned in and dropped out in the late sixties..
Gave them all the finger.. told them no..
And I did seek out my values.. I actually started thinking and reasoning.. and having deep thinking thoughts..
And those were wonderful years for humans.. to me..

Hmmm. If someone were to ask me to describe you in terms of career; I would tell them you are a great philosopher; one the greatest thinkers I've ever come across.

Thinking outside of the box.. is what I love to do..
I can remember in the late eighties and early nineties thinking.. wow this is incredible what I am learning.. and actually taking in..
I was so thirsty for truths..

Thanks for the compliment..

PS.. hubby drove out.. we are free again!

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Everybody!

Jackie

and when it came down to me getting a job if I had of kept my son.. no job would have been found

I entered the work world in the early 80's. I was an Exec. Sec. in the auto industry (sigh...wonder how many women I knew then who are starving now). Anyway, I can remember that there was 1 woman who was hired as a Drafting Engineer. Brilliant at her job; I mean Davinci brilliant. Anyway...the guy that had the forsight to hire her was basically accused of sacriledge by the rest of the males. Drafting was a male job you see and so her first day on the job most all the men (including two shop foremen in the plant out back) came up and stared at her and most of them said, "I didn't know women could draw!!" They were completely serious.

Her husband was a CFO somewhere and he got offered a very lucrative job in another State and so, after 3 months of being with us, she had to leave. The men made comments about how if she was really liberated she would've stayed here and let her husband go on to his next job!! ERRRRRR

As for single women with children? The only women I ever knew in those years (and up until about a decade ago actually) who were single with kids were actually divorced women. And the work environment was not conducive with that arrangement; not at all. If you took time off for sick kids; that was a fireable offense. I mean, you might get away with calling in once or twice but if your kid was really sick...you'd better have somewhere to drop them off or find a new job.

It was also tough then to be hired if you didn't have a car. In fact, I am recalling many times filling out applications asking point blank if you owned your own vehicle. No ride; no green. Things may've changed a bit on that perhaps; at least up here where so many people are having to let their cars fall into repo so that they can make their mortgage payments.

Last nite Cold Case had a show about stewardesses in the sixties..

Smiling here. I was wondering if you happened to watch that. I missed it! Bummer!

When I went to Miami when I was pregnant I got a stewardess job.....But the dogma around life and women and pretty and stuff like that was horrible.. just horrible

Yep! And stewardess was the glamour job!! Yeah right. I have only known one female cop in my life. She says she signed up for that job because in order to make it in this world a woman has to be employed in a man's field. I would venture to guess that's correct. You know I read somewhere that one time bank tellers were all male and that the job paid enough to support a family of ten. Then women entered the workforce in that position and the wages fell.

One thing I really could kick myself for. I opened up (single-handedly and I'm proud of this)....I opened up the automotive bodywork field for women in my generation (in the Metro Area). I sued the school system in order to get into Automotive Body Repair. They weren't going to let me in because girls weren't capable of understanding the mechanics behind engines. And we weren't strong enough either.

At the time I had some dream about customizing muscle cars. But then I opened up the field and girls got in and I dropped out and ran into the street and got pregnant. So that was that. Recently I saw a show about a woman who's considered one of the top auto customizers in the world. And I thought, "Dang it, Janey!!! Why didn't you stick with it?? Maybe you would've been really good and could've made some dough and a name for yourself?"

Ah well....that was meant to be someone else's reality. Mine is here. But I never miss a muscle car show!! So there's that!

Thinking outside of the box.. is what I love to do.. I can remember.....thinking.. wow this is incredible what I am learning.. and actually taking in..
I was so thirsty for truths

The first 6 months in AlAnon I was a mad zombie person with absolutely no concern (and I mean none) for other human beings. They could all drop dead as far as I was concerned. I didn't need them anyway. But after a while my heart began to thaw. And I remember going on walk through a famous rose garden in these parts hereabout. It was a glorious day and I remarked that I was alive and how wonderful that way. And then my thinking began to change........Thank You God!!

Love ya much!!! And everyone else too!