[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by quantum

Hey Raven, how did you get into my brain and into my family??

LOL, Quantum, I think a lot of us who have problems with codependency come from the same type of dysfuctional childhoods.

So, you grew up with the elephant standing in the middle of the room too, did you? Amazing how many people tiptoe around that dang elephant and pretend it isn't there. Does you family still ignore it? Mine sure does, lol...

[quantum]

Do they ignore the elephant? What elephant? lol

I loved when I told my parents I'd searched for and found my son, we were having a two week visit with them. My dad said 'oh that's great, so you won't have any surprizes' and then they didn't mention it again!

[Janeytwo]

Hey Quantum! Hey Raven! (Listed those in alphabetical order so you guys wouldn't think I picked one of you over the other! LOL! How's that for codependent?)

As I was reading your two posts about elephants I recalled a time in AlAnon when I'd had a particularly nasty encounter with my family over my brother M's drinking. He had just gotten out of rehab and his wife and a couple of people in my family took him out to the bar to celebrate!!

I believe I called them names you wouldn't hear in a U of M locker room after a loss to OSU.

On the verge of ripping the hair from their heads and mine I went instead to a meeting. One of my favorite sponsors was there. A little old lady with years under her belt. I remember saying to her that everyone in my family (and on the planet for that matter) should be forced at gunpoint to sit in a chair and then be tied with rope to that chair, then have their mouths sealed with duct tape. Then they should be forced to sit there for a year while a member read to them from the Big Books. I was willing of course to take the duct tape off in order to feed and water them.

My theory was that sooner or later they'd friggin have to learn something!!!!

She just laughed and said, "Yeah. They'd learn that they don't like duct tape."

My brother fell immediately off the wagon into the oblivion of alcoholism where he remains today.

The elephant in my family is pink; a pink alcoholic elephant with hiccups; the kind you see in old Looney Toon reruns.

And the sad reality is that many people would rather watch a loved one drink themselves into a 6 foot hole in the ground, than face the fact that alcoholism exists.

I think that's true of many things. My family lives in fear of what it cannot control and I live in grief knowing that.

Sigh..........

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

As I was reading your two posts about elephants I recalled a time in AlAnon when I'd had a particularly nasty encounter with my family over my brother M's drinking. He had just gotten out of rehab and his wife and a couple of people in my family took him out to the bar to celebrate!!

Grrr... I hate those stories, just hate them. They hit too close to home with me. My second stepmom used to gripe constantly about my dad's drinking. He was a hard-core alcoholic up until the day he died. He'd go on the wagon from time to time, but would never go to AA. Anyway, my stepmom would bring home bottles of booze whenever he was trying to stay sober. It used to tick me off to no end.

When my dad got lung cancer, my stepsister got angry with me when I wouldn't buy him any cigarettes. I know that it was probably too late to matter in my dad's case, but I just couldn't buy them, know what I mean? What a dysfunctional family, eh?

It's funny how many divorces happen after someone starts going to AA, like within the first year of getting sober. From what I've seen, it's like the enabler doesn't like losing his/her power in the relationship once the alcoholic starts working the program and becomes sober.

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

One of my favorite sponsors was there. A little old lady with years under her belt. I remember saying to her that everyone in my family (and on the planet for that matter) should be forced at gunpoint to sit in a chair and then be tied with rope to that chair, then have their mouths sealed with duct tape. Then they should be forced to sit there for a year while a member read to them from the Big Books. I was willing of course to take the duct tape off in order to feed and water them.

My theory was that sooner or later they'd friggin have to learn something!!!!

She just laughed and said, "Yeah. They'd learn that they don't like duct tape."

I love the old-timers in AA and AlAnon. They've seen so much crap, and they've heard just about every line that a newcomer can think of. A lot of the old-timers' retorts are real gems!

Originally Posted by Janeytwo

The elephant in my family is pink; a pink alcoholic elephant with hiccups; the kind you see in old Looney Toon reruns.

I was talking to my mom recently and mentioned something about my dad's alcoholism. She said, "oh, your dad was an alcoholic? I never knew that..." I suddenly felt like I was living in another universe when she said that! I said, "um, yeah, Mom. That's why he lost every job he ever had. That's why he went through three families. That's why he beat up his wives." And then my mom said, "oh, well, at least he never beat me up." At that point, I decided to drop the subject, Janey. My dad used to beat my mom up all the time when I was a little kid. If I tried to stop him, he'd turn on me, so I learned quickly to just stay in my bedroom when he'd been drinking.

The pink elephant not only took up all the space in the room, it literally sat on us. Denial is a really strange monster. Sigh....

[RavenSong]

Okay, folks. I've been reading my copy of Melody Beattie's Codependents' Guide to the Twelve Steps today. On page 7 (paperback edition) it says:

Step One

"We admitted we were powerless over others--that our lives had become unmanageable."

I've been thinking about being powerless over others and what that means. I've also been thinking about what it means when our lives have become unmanageable due to our codependency. Would anybody like to share their thoughts on Step One?

For myself, I can see how Step One coincides with the tortured dance with the crazymakers referred to in The Artist's Way. A recent example in my own life is my relationship with my brother. When my mom had her stroke, my brother and I were forced to interact with each other...it did not go well. I am almost nine years older than my brother, and I had way too much responsibility for him while we were growing up. And, consequently, I have a tendency to try to control him, to control whatever situation we're in together.

The only thing, though, is whenever I try to take control (and all the blame for everything), all hell breaks loose. My life becomes "unmanageable", so to speak.

I am trying to get to a place in my own head where I can allow my brother to sort his own things...I can't sort them for him. I can no longer afford to take the blame for his life or his failings...I just can't do it anymore. It makes my life crazy...it makes me feel like I'm going crazy.

Is this what Step One means by the term unmanageable? What are your feelings and thoughts on the First Step?

[Janeytwo]

Hey Raven! Thanks for posting this!

Would anybody like to share their thoughts on Step One?

The word that always caught me when I first joined AlAnon was the word "Powerless". It railed against my ego. I was always one for taking up a cause that I could argue against. Heck, I was a nerd in sports in school but in debate, I was feared!!

The word "unmanageable" didn't come into it much for me as to motivation. My life with my then-husband and his alcoholism was beyond unmanageable, in fact it was sheer hell. (Sometimes I fear that when I die - that that will be replayed like a tape. You know how they say that....that you relive everything you've witnessed in your lifetime. Hope that part of the CD is missing! LOL!)

Anyway, powerless was the thing because I didn't want to be powerless. I wanted to vanquish alcoholism; if not in the world - then at least in my own home. I was going to war and I was going to win. That's how it got me see. That's what alcoholism does, it finds your weak spot and exploits it. Mine was the need to outdo; to overcome the challenge.

I have often said that believing that I could win against such a powerful enemy was sort of like standing on train tracks, holding up my hand and ordering a speeding locomotive to STOP!!

Alcohol is a powerful disease (I no longer see it as the enemy). I will freely admit it's far more powerful than I will ever be. It has lasted thousands of years and I seriously doubt it's planning on going anywhere anytime soon.

Still, back then I needed to prove that I was right; that I could be the victor in what I once saw as a valiant fight; freeing another from their addiction.

Sigh....and somehow or another I got God wrapped up in all that and started looking to Him. "Well, YOU fix it jerko!! You're so all-that? Do something!!"



It was only through surrendering that I found my own freedom. And then one day, many years down the road, my ex-husband found his. A thing for which I am most eternally grateful.

Love ya!

[quantum]

This just brings to mind my second husband. What a horribly co-dependant relationship THAT was!

The thought that came to my mind was one day near the end, he had a dentist appointment, I, of course, had to remind him (constantly). Apparently it was my 'job' to make sure he woke up for work, for school, did his homework (he was in college), EVERYTHING. So, I remind him about his dentist appointment. He leaves, comes back a short time later. I had remembered the wrong time. . He ended up being too late for his appointment. I got HELL. Absolute HELL. All because I forgot the time for his appointment.

I felt so helpless. So alone. So out of control.
Sometimes he would call me at work and say 'I have something to talk to you about when you come home' in his 'and I'm not happy about it' tone of voice. I would spend the rest of the day on the verge of tears and shaking.

He never actually hit me, but I understand how women who get hit feel after this experiance.

After I left him the only 'support' I got from my father was an unsaid 'well I told you not to marry him'. It's like he felt I got what I deserved. That was the whole problem with that relationship. My ex would say 'I don't want to say these things about you, I don't want to do this to you, but it's your own fault you see...'

What I deserve.

[Janeytwo]

Hey Quantum,

Sending many many hugs your way. I can see how your heart has been broken and mine breaks with you.

He ended up being too late for his appointment. I got HELL. Absolute HELL. All because I forgot the time for his appointment.

God forbid a person should have to grow the frig up and take responsibility for their own, pathological butt! But then, if they weren't pathological they'd know what responsibility meant!

And you can bet he's probably pulling the same garbage on whoever he's with now. Even if it's not on the same scale - this kind of person can't get well without help and they don't think they need it. I.e. the proverbial, "It's not me...it's everyone else on the planet!"

He never actually hit me, but I understand how women who get hit feel after this experiance.

Yeah. He did hit you sweetie; he hit you in the worst way; with words. He didn't go for your throat or your ribs or you eyesockets; he went for your psyche; he grabbed for the deepest part of yourself and tried to rip it to shreds. Words cut to the bone and words are worse than any fist; they haunt us for years; pain fades but the memory of insult remains.

He seems a true crazy maker of the kind that destroys a person's equilibrium; their sense of who and what they are. An abuser of the first order. Kudos to you for having the guts to escape him. That took some big brass ones, my dear friend!

After I left him the only 'support' I got from my father was an unsaid 'well I told you not to marry him'. It's like he felt I got what I deserved.

I have often felt a special kinship with you Quantum in the fathers we have. Not that I think that your dad is anything like mine was; don't mean to imply that. But there is a cold callousness that I read in him through your posts and it hits a long and desolate chord within my own being.

Some things I remember:

I remember when my father's father died. My father made a big to-do about taking a flight back home to be with granddad. A year later my mom's mom died and she wanted to go home too. Selfish, psycho dad says, "Oh for crying out loud (mom's name deleted here out of respect)! You can't possibly think we have the money for such frivolousness. Besides, I never could stand your mother anyway."

I remember once at the age of 7 playing hide 'n seek with him and I snuck up and said "Boo!" He turned around and screamed at me, "You are a terrible, selfish, hideous child! You almost killed me! Do you realize that people can die of heart attacks when someone scares them! You almost caused my death! You sicken me!"

Sigh.....many is the day dear Quantum when my father held me accountable for his existence. And those were the good days with him when I only felt like slime under a rock instead of the scummiest creature of a child that ever walked the Earth; a child waiting in fear to be beaten beyond pain. And afterwards he would tell me too look at the floor because I was filth not worthy of being looked at by anyone.

A tough thing to admit and the tears flow as I write this.

Still it was the words he spoke that did the most damage in the end.

Guess I'm saying I understand dear friend. And as you said of me on another thread. I say this as well; no less have you suffered in this life than me or others in your long quest to feel human again.

And I honor you in that quest.

Much love and peace your way today and always,

[Jackiejdajda]

RavenSong

Is this what Step One means by the term unmanageable? What are your feelings and thoughts on the First Step?

I grew up trying to control the situations in my home.. I was so scared that my mom would flip out.. get angry..
I still can not stand anger.. hate it.. I get panic attacks when anger is present.. in my home..
I run and hide and do not want to go on.. If I fight with my husband I go to divorce.. I am going to leave this life as it is and get on with the next one because this one is crap and awful and no one loves me..
Panic attack personified..
I hated growing up in a war zone.. and I loved when I read this in Beatties book.. about control..

I need to read this on a regular basis.. to be reminded.. because as she says that if I try to control where there is no control.. I am lost and unmanageable hits me hard..


From Melody Beattie.. from Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps..

Page 22..


...."I hate that I can't control... I hate being vulnerable and
helpless. I don't like feeling uncomfortable or being in emotional
pain. I get sick having to detach and surrender. But the love affair
with this step comes in when I admit the truth.. I am powerless over
much in my life, and when I try to have power where I have none, I get
crazy. I can't control others, no matter how much I want to, no
matter how much better I think I know what's right for them.


I can't control what others do, think, or feel, whether or how they
choose to interact with me, whether or when they choose to grow and
change, and whether or when they choose to recover from their
addictions.


Sometimes I can't control myself.


I'm powerless over the backlog of feelings and negative beliefs I've
accumulated. I'm powerless over my own and others people's addictions,
including addictions to alcohol and misery.. I can't control my
children or other people's children.. I'm powerless over results,
life, circumstances, events. I can't control the course of
relationships.. I can't control timing..


God, I wish I could control timing..


But I can't..


..............further down the page..


When I try to control people, I make them and myself crazy. When I try
to control addictions, the addictions control me. When I try to
control what others think of me, I turn into a puppet on strings.
Controlling makes me and others crazy. It puts me under the control
of whatever I'm trying to influence. I lose myself. I lose touch with
myself.


And other people get angry with me and tend to back off..


When I try to control situations and circumstances, I set up blocks
to events moving forward.. When I spend time and energy trying to have
power when I have none, I lose my ability to live my own life..



And if I try and control someone else I stop them from learning their life lessons..
I really have to watch that.. I think we got to learn our own life lessons.. figure them out ourselves..
Ah..
My son.. that is one very big lesson in control.. I have to accept that his life is going to be his.. and all I can do is accept..
Its not a reaction.. like it is when some go to a meeting and tell the telling on how bad it is or was..
How they want to leave the acting out alcoholic.. how they want the person made all better..
And in fact because of their trying to control the situation and make it better then are keeping the person running in place..
Remove the victim.. remove the self..

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Quantum

The thought that came to my mind was one day near the end, he had a dentist appointment, I, of course, had to remind him (constantly). Apparently it was my 'job' to make sure he woke up for work, for school, did his homework (he was in college), EVERYTHING. So, I remind him about his dentist appointment. He leaves, comes back a short time later. I had remembered the wrong time. . He ended up being too late for his appointment. I got HELL. Absolute HELL. All because I forgot the time for his appointment.

I had to get my husband up for work after he had been drinking all nite.. I had to do it because if I did not he would not work and no money would come into the house and all was lost..
I remember a certain fellow that would come to town.. and hubby would have an obligation to go and drink with him.. they have traveled to England together when young men.. I hated that fellow and I remember hubbies boss calling and was angry when hubby had not shown up for work.. and that fellow was down stairs.. I remember telling him to leave my home.. get out.. and I continued to make sure hubby the worker got to work..
Drunk or stoned or whatever..
What an insane life.. I was such a part of the insanity..

I felt so helpless. So alone. So out of control.
Sometimes he would call me at work and say 'I have something to talk to you about when you come home' in his 'and I'm not happy about it' tone of voice. I would spend the rest of the day on the verge of tears and shaking.

He never actually hit me, but I understand how women who get hit feel after this experiance.

Mine would put his fist through cupboards.. and grab my arm very tight..
Power play.. do as you are told play..
And there I was the victim.. and into the why am I here scenario.

After I left him the only 'support' I got from my father was an unsaid 'well I told you not to marry him'. It's like he felt I got what I deserved. That was the whole problem with that relationship. My ex would say 'I don't want to say these things about you, I don't want to do this to you, but it's your own fault you see...'

What I deserve.

Turning around and facing the things said to us.. by someone that is deep into their addiction or insanity..
And then getting a hold of our lives.. doing the steps..
Looking at ourselves… seeing the why of it..

Understanding that the ones that are deep into their own addictions do not see the pain of others.. the hurt inflicted..
Even when we try and control others we do not see them we see who or what we want them to be.. to make ourselves more comfortable..
When just giving up is the answer.. your father and him not seeing how hard your life was and or is.. and then saying I see your pain.. I am so sorry that this is happening to you..
Noooo what we get is I told you so.. I am right.. I am the one that knows what is best..
Just like in that coercion thread.. everyone knows what the pregnant woman and or man considering relinquishing should do..

We are powerless over what others tell us what to do.. and we need to just walk away from it.. think it through ourselves.. and get on with it..

Hmmmm

Jackie

[quantum]

Thanks you guys, I never realised that coming here would help me to talk about and heal from that awful person.

I've often thought about him and have thought that he is indeed someone who would never change. That he is probably doing the same kinda crap with his new love.

And thanks for the support about my dad! Janey, I'm sure our dad's are on different levels, but wow could I hear his voice with the 'for crying out loud'....


Certainly as far as my father goes, our relationship has gotten much better since I have stopped trying to control him. I try to let his comments just roll right off my back or take some strength ina weird way by agreeing with him 'you're right dad, I'm too dumb to understand what you're saying, can you explain it so I do?' and not playing the game of defend and get attacked...

[Janeytwo]

Hey everybody!

Jackie

I still can not stand anger.. hate it.. I get panic attacks when anger is present.. in my home.. I run and hide and do not want to go on.. If I fight with my husband I go to divorce.. I am going to leave this life as it is and get on with the next one because this one is crap and awful and no one loves me.. Panic attack personified..

It's the cut & run, survival mode. In Motorcity-ese, the old, "I gottah split, get the f** outtah Dodge, man!!"

The need to escape. I watched my mom run in desparation to another continent to get away from her life with daddio. And you know, long into my 20's when I was still enslaved to him psychologically, I can remember me and my brothers & sisters having to go see him for our twice yearly visit. My brothers and sisters despised him then and would continually change the date of the visits and he'd call me and talk about killing himself and how if he didn't see the family, that his death would be on my hands. I'd get bros and sisters to agree to visit and then I'd spend the week before the visit throwing things, screaming at my family, completely insane with fear. I'd call and tell my friends what possessions of mine I wanted them to have in case I didn't come back from his house. I would pray that I lived the weekend. God, it was soooo palpable Jackie - that fear. It was like a living, breathing thing.

And I didn't understand that I could just stop seeing him. When I did of course, he turned his games on my siblings and then turned on me. I'm sure they've never forgiven me for that. It was okay when I was under the bus but now they were under it.

The sad thing is the thing that precipitated my freedom was the death of my brother "X". It took that for me so see the truth and begin to free myself. 30 years old and still daddy's little chump girl; daddy's little pin cushion. Sigh......maaaan what a game he ran on us - me and mine.


It's like what you were saying Jackie about running in place. That's what it was like before I checked into the hospital and surrendered myself to the care of psychiatrists. I was running in place, trying to be Shiney White Janey who didn't surrender two children; who was an upright citizen from respectability land and knew how to bake excellent desserts and knew how to clean up her alcoholic husband's vomit without complaining and knew how to be dutiful to a psychopath.

And the entire time I could feel God up there just waiting patiently for me to realize that half the problem was me myself. That I had to quit running and stand in one place so He could talk to me.

And when I finally said, "This crap's ways more than I can handle! I can't do this!" He stepped in and said, "That's okay, Janey. I can."

And the rest is history........a history filled with those traveling on the path beside me. Where will it go? None can say but I'm glad I let go, ya know?

In all of it, I do wish my father peace. Who knows what made him what he was? Much fear in childhood I'm certain. Funny thing Perhaps it is time to accept it all went down and bid it goodnight.

Your eyes are heavy darling daughter
And you're dizzy in the head
Little dolly go to bed

[Janeytwo]

Hey Quantum!

Just wanted to say that I feared in my original post to you about our dads that I might've upset you.

I sure hope not.

I don't think your dad was like mine; just I understand how a daughter can be wounded by the love she has for a father.

Hope that makes sense.

Love ya bud!

[quantum]

Janey, you didn't upset me at all! :-)

[Jackiejdajda]

Quantum

Certainly as far as my father goes, our relationship has gotten much better since I have stopped trying to control him. I try to let his comments just roll right off my back or take some strength ina weird way by agreeing with him 'you're right dad, I'm too dumb to understand what you're saying, can you explain it so I do?' and not playing the game of defend and get attacked...

From Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps.. Melody Beattie..
page 25.. step one.

The Detachment Step

The First Step is the Step that helps us begin detaching – a recovery concept that means we release and detach from others – lovingly, whenever possible..


...further down the page.


Often, this Step puts us in touch with our feelings – feelings of fear, hurt, or shame. It puts us in touch with grief. At first, this Step can feel dark and frightening. It doesn’t have to, not for long. It renders us powerless over what we cannot control, so we can become empowered. Once we accept whatever loss or area of powerlessness we’re facing, we’re free to feel and deal with our feelings, then move forward with life.


And I think we can grieve that our parents are/were not very good parents..

I was able to become close to my dad in the nursing home when he really needed me to help him out of his insanity.. I learned about some of his demons.. why he was like he was..

I can remember a therapist telling me that when someone can not control their lives around them they attack others.. my dad would attack me..
He would check to see if my home was clean.. he would shake his head when I would fall from grace.
And I was terrified of him when he was in his prime..
I hated his judgment.. hated it..
I can remember when hubby and I finally bought a home and we were so proud.. I can remember seeing dads footsteps around our run down garage (in the snow).. and I felt his judgment..
We had not bought the correct home..

I grieve this inability of his to accept me as I was and to rejoice that I had finally bought a home.. mom was upset that the home was not on a ravine that was across the road.. I felt bad about that as well..

Detaching.. whew..

Jackie