[Jackiejdajda]

LyndzyBloo

I'd probably feel a lot better to say that Steve was an addict or an alcoholic to give myself some reason why he did those things to me and my mom. The truth is he never drank/did drugs as far as I know. He used to beat my mother for being an alcoholic and having Vodka in the house so she started having me hide the bottles for her.

Well your mother addicted then.. and that gives you an in in any one of the codependency Alanon type meetings.. real time in your city.
A way to learn how to sort some of this.. A way to find people that can say to you “I understand what you are going through.”
This and therapy may help..
What a terrible terrible thing this man Steve is.. I was thinking of you last nite and what you must have gone through..
I read your bio and see you are pregnant and thinking of relinquishing.. I hope we can help you with this.. In program we learn that we can not tell a person what to do.. all we can do is share what we have learned from this..
The women that are participating in this thread have relinquished.. So you are not alone..

My whole life I've doubted myself and never had confidence. I have a very hard time trusting a lot of people including my family. I grew up thinking that what George did was normal and acceptable, and in my later years when i was raped by two different other people I shrugged it off and acted like it wasn't a big deal. These were people I was leaning on for help while I was homeless. Until recently I would never open up to anyone and I'm hesitant about being in any kind of relationships because of trust and because I look at sex as a chore really. Growing up I used to beat myself up in school by hitting myself and chocking myself. When I was 14 I tried to kill myself and then I endulged myself in the wrong crowed and I was doing all sorts of drugs; crack, cocaine, pot, acid, mushrooms, meth, pills, inhalents, but during that time I never touched herion and alcohol because of my mother. I trusted no one in school not even my teachers who were there to help me. I almost dropped out multiple times because I didn't have the will to continue doing good in my lfe. What happened in my childhood had/has such a negative effect on my life. I have multiple disorders involving axiety and PTSD, and I still haven't felt the feeling of being safe.

Again you are not alone.. After I relinquished my son I got into drugs and.. I hated alcohol because my mom drank to excess..
And I ran from everything.. I am from the sixties..
But I survived.. some did not..

Also I did learn how to trust.. I honestly did..

I have been told a few times that I react differently towards people because of a lack of trust or just that social axiety that I have. I wouln't say that it's negative, usually it comes off as shy but then those who know me say i'm the most outgoing person ever! Sometimes it's hard to have conversations because it may be a word, a smell, or even if the topic is close to what happened to me, my PTSD kicks in and depending on how bad it is I may start crying or worse black out. During my black outs, i'm completly unaware of whats happening. I can remember one time with my best friend Matt (who I talk about a lot because he is the only guy I trust), we we're at a restraunt and he mentioned something and it driggered a black out and apparently i threw a chair and screamed. I don't remember any of that.

I hope and pray you keep working towards level ground for yourself..
In my time some survived and some did not.. Some came out of the insanity of counter culture drugs etc.. and some did not.
I came out of it.. I married and I had kids and I turned it all around..
I did not go for therapy I just stopped being difficult with myself..

I hate to say this but i still talk to Steve on a very respectable level for one reason. His son ben was born the same year as my abortion and I love Ben. That child means more to me than anything....(well except my own little one on the way) But I'm so thankful for that little guy that I still talk to Steve even though I hate him so much. I never go and visit Steve alone though I always take Matt with me.

You are strong woman that is obvious..

But thank you for taking the time to read all that and this and for recommending a book that may help. I appreciate that your very understanding and not judgemental.

My goodness how can I judge you.. I admire you.. You are a survivor..
My daughter is part of the ‘life’ today.. she is in a band..
The Toronto Times - Sinkin Ships

You can see her picture and she writes the words to the music.. if you put Naomi Allan in a search engine.. you will see more.. She was in another band called 2 Pump Louie..
She wrote one song called .. 'I want to have an aliens baby'.. or something like that.. I smile everytime I think of this..
I remember when she learned about me giving my son up for adoption and how I did not speak about him for a very long time..
My life heading into her life.. and so on..

You live in a hard world.. I am glad you are still standing..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Dear LyndzyBloo,

Hi! I'm Janey! Welcome to the forum and to our Codependency thread!

First let me apologize for not replying to your brave post yesterday but I was away and didn't see it until just now.

You posted so many important things, I'm going to try and hit on them as they come to me......

The things that first struck me was the title you wrote under your name: Tough as nails.

Pretty cool that you wrote that because I've been thinking a lot about nails lately. The nails other people drove into my emotional coffin and the ones I drove in there after them. Those nails are the toughest and most difficult to push back out of our lives.

Lately I have been posting to people that I have endured as a sort of vampire within my own life; hiding within my mental basement; avoiding the daylight of truth; denying the pain that exists in there with me. This walk into daylight? Into coming to terms with my realities? It is beginning to feel as if I am trying to bust my way out of a coffin and the wood is splintered and jagged where the nails have gone in and my hands are bloodied and raw from the trying.

.....We share somewhat of a common history in childhood- you and I. And I am also a birthmother (I see you are 19 and pregnant and waiting to place a child - at least I hope I'm reading that right). I relinquished 2 children - a daughter and a son - and my heart aches for you in what you have lost and continue to lose.

There are a couple of things I wanted to share. When I was institutionalized I learned that people who are abused as children often have a sort of "victim light" on them. Predators recognize that light and take advantage of it. Half the battle is learning how to turn the light off and that takes professional help. I would echo Jackie in that I strongly recommend finding help through therapy to recovery what was taken from you. Be kind to yourself Lyndzy....take care of you.

The other half of the battle is learning not to live the "trip-wire" existence. I liken myself to those guys you see in combat movies who're battled-hardened and leery. And they walk through the jungle with panther-like eyes, not trusting anyone, listening for every sound, every movement. There is also the hatred such a childhood leaves on the soul; a bitterness. I have a terrible time not with forgiving an enemy but with having the slightest compassion for them. Indifference; the ugliest of emotions.

On the subject of the street....the thing I remember most about that life was the walking everywhere to get nowhere. It is difficult to relay that experience to other people but that was the thing. THe endless walking. Passing by a factory window and seeing my reflection; that non-person looking back at me with hollow eyes. And me standing before that relfection thinking, "Who is that? Is that me? Is this what I had planned for myself? Who am I? I can't see past this." The walking through the night to find a place to rest before the sun beat down. Again...the vampire life.

Not that I think I'm a vampire! LOL! Hope nobody thinks that I believe that!! Trust me. I'm just your average homosapien. It's just that the street is a lonely, blank existence. I am sure you know what I mean. Being so tired, so hungry. I dunno....

I'm going to stop here for now. This post was not supposed to be about me anyhow.

I have to take in the stuff that Jackie and Quantum have written and a PM that came to me from a very good friend. Plus what you've written. I have to weigh this stuff out and think.

Such wonderful people here with so much wisdom.

Love you all!

Whoa, thought it was a nightmare,
Lo, its all so true,
They told me, dont go walkin slow
cause devils on the loose.
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Better run through the jungle,
Woa, dont look back to see.
CCR

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

Weak Boundaries

Codependents frequently:

-say they won’t tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
-gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
-let others hurt them.
-wonder why they hurt so badly.
-complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
-finally get angry.
-become totally intolerant..
-have an overall passive response to codependency—crying, hurt, helplessness.
-have an overall aggressive response to codependency—violence, anger, dominance.
-combine passive and aggressive responses.
-vacillate in decisions and emotions.
-laugh when they feel like crying.
-stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
-be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
-be confused about the nature of the problem.
-cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
-not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn’t bad enough, or they aren’t important enough.
-wonder why the problem doesn’t go away..


Maybe we can share on any one of these..

So many of these statements apply to my own life. The ones that really resonate with me are laughing when I feel like crying; vacillating in decisions and emotions; letting others hurt me, over and over again; being confused about the nature of the problem. Deep down inside of me, I also think that I am not important enough to get help from my friends, or even a professional for that matter.

I have a horrible time making decisions. I'm always scared to death that I'll make the wrong decision. I remember as a kid, my mom used to tell me over and over that if I couldn't do something right the first time, not to do it at all. And, yes, I still can hear her saying that in my head all these years later. It's a broken record.... I feel like I'm frozen or paralyzed by inaction. I get scared of making a decision, and end up making none...

[Jackiejdajda]

RavenSong

So many of these statements apply to my own life. The ones that really resonate with me are laughing when I feel like crying; vacillating in decisions and emotions; letting others hurt me, over and over again; being confused about the nature of the problem.

This from Melody Beatties daily reader.. The Language of Letting Go. Page 137

Boundaries

Sometimes, life and people seem to push and push. Because we are so used to pain, we may tell ourselves it doesn’t hurt. Because we are so used to people controlling and manipulating us, we may tell ourselves there is something wrong with us.

There is nothing wrong with us. Life is pushing and hurting to get our attention. Sometimes, the pain and pushing are pointing towards a lesson. The lesson may be that we’ve become too controlling. Or maybe we’re being pushed to own our power to take care of ourselves. The issue is boundaries.

If something or somebody is pushing us to our limits, that’s exactly what’s happening: we’re being pushed to our limits. We can be grateful for the lesson that’s here to help us explore and set our boundaries.

Today, I will give myself permission to set the limits I want and need to set in my life.

Deep down inside of me, I also think that I am not important enough to get help from my friends, or even a professional for that matter.

She says (above) we are being pushed towards a lesson..
I believe it goes back to the childhood messages that children believe with no question.. I am not good enough.. all is wrong with me..
We need to sort that.. we need to not abandon ourselves..

I have a horrible time making decisions. I'm always scared to death that I'll make the wrong decision. I remember as a kid, my mom used to tell me over and over that if I couldn't do something right the first time, not to do it at all. And, yes, I still can hear her saying that in my head all these years later. It's a broken record.... I feel like I'm frozen or paralyzed by inaction. I get scared of making a decision, and end up making none...

Beattie says we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves.. to sort the tapes that go round and round in our heads.. understand that your mom was speaking from a mind that was wrong.. thoughts that were wrong..
Look at that statement “if I couldn't do something right the first time, not to do it at all”
We learn by our mistakes.. kids learn by their own mistakes.. doing it wrong to see how wrong it is.. that’s the proper way to develop and grow and become the functioning human we need to become in order to have a good life..
We learn and we don’t do it again..
Its like making amends for what we have done in our lives.. we say we are sorry and or we take responsibility and then don’t do it again..
But if we don’t see the mistake.. mistakes.. then where are we..

Your mom was wrong..


Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

The other half of the battle is learning not to live the "trip-wire" existence. I liken myself to those guys you see in combat movies who're battled-hardened and leery. And they walk through the jungle with panther-like eyes, not trusting anyone, listening for every sound, every movement. There is also the hatred such a childhood leaves on the soul; a bitterness. I have a terrible time not with forgiving an enemy but with having the slightest compassion for them. Indifference; the ugliest of emotions.

Indifference towards ourselves.. that..
From Codependent No More.. Codependent Characteristics..
Page 46

Denial

Codependents tend to:

-Ignore problems or pretend they aren’t happening.
-pretend circumstances aren’t as bad as they are.
-tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
-stay busy so they don’t have to think about things.
-get confused.
-get depressed or sick.
-go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
-become workaholics.
-spend money compulsively.
-overeat.
-pretend those things aren’t happening, either.
-watch problems get worse.
-believe lies.
-lie to themselves.
-wonder why they feel like they’re going crazy.


Major for me.. all of this.. major..
I can remember thinking.. I am walking through a fog here..
-go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
I had access to all the illegal downer drugs I could get my hands on.. and I went to the doctors to get tranquilizers..
Pills.. I like pills the very best of all..
Take a pill and bam all is well and all things are well..
And I used to watch problems get worse..
Big time..

I can remember the first time I walked down the hill near our home in Toronto and asked for help.. asked for therapy..
Decided I needed to stop my running behavior..
I am a recluse.. and I love it.. and now I see a word put on it.. me.. Denial..
Denial that its happening..

From Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps.. page 223… Glossary of Recovery Terms..

Denial
Most of us are good at this. Denial refers to our ability to ignore what is happening, even when it is right before our eyes. We do this to protect ourselves until we are ready to face the truth. Part of us knows what’s true; part of us knows what’s real. By connecting to recovery groups and other recovering people, that part of us feels safe and strong enough to surface..


What about us sharing on this here denial.. thingee..

Jackie

[quantum]

oooh Denial.

I denied my pregnancy until I was 6 months along. I had a therapist say my denial was a GOOD thing. Is it? Of course now I wonder if I wanted to avoid the whole abortion question. But I do know I just wanted it not to be. I said 'Im starting college, so I'm stressed so I'm not getting my period' and 'I'm just gaining the freshman 15' and 'it's just gas' when the baby kicked.
I feel so sad for that girl.

When I was with my first husband I was so depressed. I remember my therapist there asking how my marriage was and me telling her how fabulous it was. I would burst into tears for no reason seemingly (by the way I've never dealt with my relinquishment in therapy, wasn't allowed to in the beginning and my later therapist sort of ignored the topic, speaking of denial).
I got 'diagnosed' as 'clinically depressed' and told I needed drugs to keep my 'chemical balance'
But I've not taken them since 1997 and I haven't been happier, more stable, more focused. What's that about?

Oh I've done all those things too! The denial things. All of them I think.

Must finish this later!

[Jackiejdajda]

quantum

I denied my pregnancy until I was 6 months along. I had a therapist say my denial was a GOOD thing. Is it? Of course now I wonder if I wanted to avoid the whole abortion question. But I do know I just wanted it not to be. I said 'Im starting college, so I'm stressed so I'm not getting my period' and 'I'm just gaining the freshman 15' and 'it's just gas' when the baby kicked.
I feel so sad for that girl.

I remember sitting on the greyhound bus traveling from Boston to Miami knowing I was pregnant.. and I had to tell my mom and dad.
I could no longer deny that I was pregnant.. I sure understand when a girl or woman tells no one till they give birth.. this if they can hide the pregnancy.. I have no blame what so ever because I think denial is really really a part of this codependency thing and just not the way of the coward..
But I would think that I was a coward because I hid from or did denial..
Guilt.. and more guilt that I was a coward and did not face life full on..

But jeez I had to sort so much in my life and I know I threw myself out there.. I know I did..

When I was with my first husband I was so depressed. I remember my therapist there asking how my marriage was and me telling her how fabulous it was. I would burst into tears for no reason seemingly (by the way I've never dealt with my relinquishment in therapy, wasn't allowed to in the beginning and my later therapist sort of ignored the topic, speaking of denial).

Blaming keeps us running in place.. or heck resentments..

This on the fourth step.. page 62 .. Codependents Guide to the Twelve Steps

Many of us begin recovery from codependency by looking around and outside of ourselves. That’s often how life gets our attention. We get mad, whine, rage, manipulate, attempt to control, and point the finger at the other person in absolute insistence that he or she is doing something inappropriate, something we do not like, something we want that person to stop doing.

This is what we call an “outward” focus.

Often, focusing on the behavior of others is justified, appropriate, and necessary. But when we tire of expending energy discussing the details of the other person, whether that person is a parent, child, friend, spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend, co-worker, boss or employee, we face the Fourth Step questions: What’s going on with me? What am I doing? Why did I need to go through these circumstances? What are these circumstances triggering within me? What are the old memories, the old fears, the old tapes, being replayed? What is my agenda? What’s my lesson from this experience?

What do I need to learn about taking care of myself? And what’s stopping me from doing that?


There is a story about a man in the BB of AA.. about him turning his glasses around and seeing himself..
I often think of that image.. turning the glasses around..
In the fourth step of AA we are told to look at our resentments and then see our part in them..
I think for a codependent type person our part in them is we keep them going.. and going and going..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Everybody! Hugs! Lots of them!

Raven First - and most important - please forgive me for not getting back to you when I said I would. This weekend has slipped away from me somehow! I am hoping it is not my age that's tripping me up! LOL! Hope ya know I luv ya kiddo!

The ones that really resonate with me are laughing when I feel like crying; vacillating in decisions and emotions

Getting a grip on emotions. That's the trick isn't it? I feel many of us were raised to either deny our feelings, be ashamed of them or we were taught not to acknowledge their power. The first thing I ask my daughters when they're upset is, "What are you feeling right now?" I ask them that because it's been hard for me to learn to put my finger on what I'm feeling - as to what I'm supposed to be feeling that's acceptable within the family dynamic.

I haven't wanted that for my girls. I've wanted them to be able to stop and turn inward and give themselves time to answer that oh-so-important question, "What am I feeling right now?"

That's been masked for so many of us. And for me, being institutionalized twice - I came to fear my feelings. I feared what the doctors were thinking of me if I had any. Though as it turned out, they were more concerned when I said I didn't have them.

I have a horrible time making decisions. I'm always scared to death that I'll make the wrong decision.......I feel like I'm frozen or paralyzed by inaction. I get scared of making a decision, and end up making none

((( Raven ))) How well I know this one.

There's this famous saying by....uhmmmm....by somebody....let's see...how does it go? Oh yeah! A person who doesn't make mistakes, usually doesn't make anything. I believe that's how it goes. Sounds like gospel to me!

In AlAnon they say that no one can do anything - make any move or decision - until they're ready. And that's okay. We'll get there!! Just maybe we're walking and someone else is taking a cab. And you know what? When a person's in a cab? Well it seems to me they're either busy worrying about the operator's sucky driving skills or they're chattering away on their cell phone about something inane and missing the scenery in the process.

Thanks but I'd rather walk. Because in walking, I've got a better chance of spotting that deli on the corner with the awesome selection of cheesecakes in the window.

Jackie Hey ya!

Denial refers to our ability to ignore what is happening, even when it is right before our eyes. We do this to protect ourselves until we are ready to face the truth. Part of us knows what’s true; part of us knows what’s real.

...........

What about us sharing on this here denial.. thingee..

I remember reading once about something that Jackie Kennedy did after JFK was shot. This was later - at the hospital in Dallas. She was there and she took a piece of her husband's skull out of her pocket - she'd picked the piece up from the flooboard or somewhere in the car after he'd been shot. Anyway she handed this piece of him to the doctors and said as calm as day, "Here....you might need this."

That story has stuck with me because that's the denial I understand - though I in no way compare my loss to what that poor woman witnessed that day. But it's felt like.....well....like that kind of thing........like being in a foxhole and the guy in the next one gets blown to bits and I'm standing there wearing his guts and I'm staring and say, "Huh. I wonder if someone has a napkin?" That kind of denial. That's what I've done with my life; looked at it with a ten-thousand yard stare. Like I was watching some shoddy rendition of some other loser's story.

Jackie....lately....very lately....I have heard God whisper to me saying, "Janey, you do realize don't you that you lost two children? You do get that, right? You understand how tremendous your pain is don't you?"

I want to flip Him the bird!! I want to cry on His shoulder!! I want to admit it and then punch Him in the face!!

Yes I KNOW that God! Can I go to the next movie now, please? Can I skip the part where the loser/heroine/Queen of Denial has an emotional breakdown because she finally realizes in her deep heart of hearts what happened to her? Can I skip that part please? I'll do some other kind of penance. I'll....I'll hang out with the sterling white people and talk about nonsense crap like which is better - sugar from a spoon or sugar from a cube! Heck, I'll play golf and drive around in one of those carts that the rich people rent!!! Anything!! Anything but having to let go and grieve!!! Anything but that because that's when I go from being the guy watching the guy in the foxhole get blown up to being the guy who gets blown up!!! I hate it! I hate it!

Quantum

I denied my pregnancy until I was 6 months along.....I wonder if I wanted to avoid the whole abortion question. But I do know I just wanted it not to be. I said 'Im starting college, so I'm stressed so I'm not getting my period' and 'I'm just gaining the freshman 15' and 'it's just gas' when the baby kicked.
I feel so sad for that girl.

I did the same thing and for the same reason. I often wonder how much Roe played into our denials (though I am loathe to start any debate on THAT topic and so I'll leave it at that).

But I also knew but refused to know. Perhaps because we knew what option we would choose and so we payed out the line in order to not have to face that option before we were ready. Then again, fear plays a role as well. I often ask myself if anyone has ever started a thread in here about that fear when a girl/woman realizes she's pregnant and it's not the optimal time.

I'm sure unmarried young girls aren't the only ones who've experience that frightening, dull tug of realization. I can imagine many women have felt it in hard circumstances. During wartime and economic downturns and divorce and ill health and just having had a baby the year before. All manner of happenstance that occurs and brings a woman to that moment when she looks down at the tester and says, "Oh no."

In fact, I was with a friend when that happened to her. She was divorced and had had a brief fling with someone; had that fling in a moment of lonliness; took a risk; just that one risk and that one risk was all it took. Those two words were exactly the ones she uttered as we stood together in that bathroom, our heads touching like sorority sisters, watching the little red line appear in the tester window. She said in a small pained voice, "Oh no." God! I will never forget that!!

Hard stuff this stuff. Life stuff.

And Jackie's right. Denial doesn't make a person a coward. IMO it's just a forestalling; an inability to deal at the moment. A protective device. Human.

Love you guys!

[RavenSong]

Hmmmm, denial. The first thought that comes to mind is, "I'm not in denial." And then I wonder if I'm denying being in denial. My head is swimming...

I tend to be the person in my family who stands up and says the emperor has no clothes. Or I point out that there's an elephant standing in the middle of the room. What usually happens is I end up being accused by family members of being insane, crazy, nutso, looney...well, you get the idea.

In my family of origin, we were taught to never "air our dirty laundry". Heck, we were expected to pretend it didn't even exist. Feelings were not tolerated, especially negative emotions like anger or sadness or frustration. As a small child, I was always punished if I showed any anger or if I was pouting. I could go on and on about how that particular child-rearing practice messed me up big time, but I'll spare you all.

Anyway, denial was always, always, always practiced in my family. It was just a way of life. The elephant in the middle of the room, that's how I recall growing up.

[RavenSong]

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

Beattie says we have a responsibility to take care of ourselves.. to sort the tapes that go round and round in our heads.. understand that your mom was speaking from a mind that was wrong.. thoughts that were wrong..

Jackie, I know logically that my mom was wrong in her thinking...I know this as an adult. But when I was a little kid, I thought my mom was all-powerful and always right. That is what I'm fighting now inside myself. That little girl inside who still thinks her mommy is always right. I'm trying so hard to sort everything out, but it gets confusing.

Originally Posted by Jackiejdajda

Look at that statement “if I couldn't do something right the first time, not to do it at all”
We learn by our mistakes.. kids learn by their own mistakes.. doing it wrong to see how wrong it is.. that’s the proper way to develop and grow and become the functioning human we need to become in order to have a good life..
We learn and we don’t do it again..

Whoa, this part of your post gave me an 'aha' moment. Of course we learn by our own mistakes. What in the heck was my mother thinking? "Do it right the first time, or don't do it at all." How in the world is a child supposed to know how to do something "right" the very first time, especially without being taught how to do it or being given a chance to do it and then getting it wrong. Child of a perfectionist...grows up to be...in therapy for years on end.

I was just wondering if I applied her mandate of doing it right the first time or not doing it at all when I decided to surrender my son? Was I afraid that I'd make a mistake in raising him? Did my knowledge that I would not be a perfect mother have anything to do with placing him for adoption? Or was it just too darn hard?? I don't know...but I do have something to sort out about it.

[Jackiejdajda]

Janeytwo

Yes I KNOW that God! Can I go to the next movie now, please? Can I skip the part where the loser/heroine/Queen of Denial has an emotional breakdown because she finally realizes in her deep heart of hearts what happened to her? Can I skip that part please? I'll do some other kind of penance. I'll....I'll hang out with the sterling white people and talk about nonsense crap like which is better - sugar from a spoon or sugar from a cube! Heck, I'll play golf and drive around in one of those carts that the rich people rent!!! Anything!! Anything but having to let go and grieve!!! Anything but that because that's when I go from being the guy watching the guy in the foxhole get blown up to being the guy who gets blown up!!! I hate it! I hate it!

From Healing The Shame that Binds You.. John Bradshaw..
page 40

On The Dysfunctional Family Rules.

4. Denial of the Five Freedoms – The five freedoms, first enunciated by Virginia Satir, describe full personal functionality. Each freedom has to do with basic human power …. The power to perceive; to think and interpret; to feel; to want and choose; and the power to imagine. In shame based families, the perfectionist rule prohibits the full expression of these powers. It says you shouldn’t perceive, think, feel, desire, or imagine the way you do. You should do these the way the perfectionist ideal demands.



Bradshaw looks at what should have happened to some of us when we were raised by healthy minded adults.. the power to perceive to think to interpret to feel.. etc..

Some of us did not get this.. and we learn how to deny ourselves the legitimate feelings that are endemic in living a life that is heck.. normal..
The perfectionist rule.. I could not be pregnant.. must not be pregnant.. must not fall from grace.. not allowed.. and if I did (which I did) I must go through any horror in order to protect the denial in my collective family.. When I was pregnant in 1965 abortion was illegal.. so I had to find someone to abort my baby in order to protect the family.. from shame..
I went through some terrible times.. and I finally said no.. and my mom was shocked.. she did not want anyone to know about my fall from grace.. and so I moved heaven and earth to make sure no one knew.. I got a job in Grand Bahamas and worked and saved till I showed.. I never went near where mom and dad lived after I showed.. It was all about the denial..
The power to choose.. heck.. I had no choice..

Grief.. is not the perfectionist way.. Don’t show the pain.. stiff upper lip.
This is the legacy..


The Dysfunctional Family Rules


1. Control – One must be in control of all interactions, feelings and personal behavior at all times …. control is the major defense strategy for shame.

2. Perfectionism – Always be right in everything you do. The perfectionist rule always involves a measurement that is being imposed. The fear and avoidance of the negative is the organizing principle of life. The members live according to an externalized image. No one ever measures up.

3. Blame – Whenever things don’t turn out as planned, blame yourself or others. Blame is another defensive cover-up for shame … Blame maintains the balance in a dysfunctional system when control has broken down.

4. Denial Of The Five Freedoms – The five freedoms, first enunciated by Virginia Satir, describe full personal functionality. Each freedom has to do with basic human power …. The power to perceive; to think and interpret; to feel; to want and choose; and the power to imagine. In shame based families, the perfectionist rule prohibits the full expression of these powers. It says you shouldn’t perceive, think, feel, desire, or imagine the way you do. You should do these the way the perfectionist ideal demands.

5. The No-Talk Rule – This rule prohibits the full expression of any feeling, need or want. In shame-based families, the members want to hide their true feelings, needs or wants. Therefore, no one speaks of his loneliness and sense of self-rupture.

6. Don’t Make Mistakes – Mistakes reveal the flawed vulnerable self. To acknowledge a mistake is to open oneself to scrutiny. Cover up your own mistakes and if someone is makes a mistake, shame him.

7. Unreliability – Don’t expect reliability in relationships. Don’t trust anyone and you will never be disappointed. The parents didn’t get their developmental dependency needs met and will not be there for their children to depend on. The distrust cycle goes on.


I can remember Bradshaw saying or writing.. “You don’t know what you don’t know.”

Jackie

[Jackiejdajda]

RavenSong

Jackie, I know logically that my mom was wrong in her thinking...I know this as an adult. But when I was a little kid, I thought my mom was all-powerful and always right. That is what I'm fighting now inside myself. That little girl inside who still thinks her mommy is always right. I'm trying so hard to sort everything out, but it gets confusing.

From the same book as above.. and in the same chapter.. page 40 Healing the Shame that Binds You.. John Bradshaw..

The parenting rules used in most western world families create massive shame. Add alcoholism, incest, physical abuse to these systems, and you get major dysfunctional. Alice Miller has summed up these rules under the title of Poisonous Pedagogy. These rules state:

1. Adults are the masters of the dependent child.
2. They determine in godlike fashion what is right and what is wrong.
3. The child is held responsible for the parents anger.
4. The parents must always be shielded.
5. The child’s life-affirming feelings pose a threat to the autocratic adult.
6. The child’s will must be “broken” as soon as possible.
7. All this must happen at a very early age so the child “won’t notice” and will therefore not be able to expose the adult.

For Your Own Good(her book)

He goes on to say.. that some parents know not what they do.. quoting Alice Miller again..

And IMO we can forgive them.. through this kind of thinking.. but.. but.. its still in us.. things that broke us.. that were done to us before we even remember what happened.. and that’s what we seek.. and destroy.. and understand.

Whoa, this part of your post gave me an 'aha' moment. Of course we learn by our own mistakes. What in the heck was my mother thinking? "Do it right the first time, or don't do it at all." How in the world is a child supposed to know how to do something "right" the very first time, especially without being taught how to do it or being given a chance to do it and then getting it wrong. Child of a perfectionist...grows up to be...in therapy for years on end.

She did what she learned..
It was interesting.. when I started reading and watching Bradshaw in the eighties.. I learned that I was passing a lot of my crappy bits on to my kids.. and I changed.. I allowed my kids to make a mistake in order to learn.. I allowed them things I would not have allowed them before I read what I posted above..
I changed..
Some of our parents can’t change.. and then I go to that forth step passage in the BB of AA..
Page 64 or 65 of the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous.

Though we did not like their symptoms and the way these disturbed us, they, like ourselves, were sick too. We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend. When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."

That is when I switched.. my mind switched..

I was just wondering if I applied her mandate of doing it right the first time or not doing it at all when I decided to surrender my son? Was I afraid that I'd make a mistake in raising him? Did my knowledge that I would not be a perfect mother have anything to do with placing him for adoption? Or was it just too darn hard?? I don't know...but I do have something to sort out about it.

No blame on any of it.. we are humans.. we do human things..

Jackie

[quantum]

Originally Posted by RavenSong

Hmmmm, denial. The first thought that comes to mind is, "I'm not in denial." And then I wonder if I'm denying being in denial. My head is swimming...

I tend to be the person in my family who stands up and says the emperor has no clothes. Or I point out that there's an elephant standing in the middle of the room. What usually happens is I end up being accused by family members of being insane, crazy, nutso, looney...well, you get the idea.

In my family of origin, we were taught to never "air our dirty laundry". Heck, we were expected to pretend it didn't even exist. Feelings were not tolerated, especially negative emotions like anger or sadness or frustration. As a small child, I was always punished if I showed any anger or if I was pouting. I could go on and on about how that particular child-rearing practice messed me up big time, but I'll spare you all.

Anyway, denial was always, always, always practiced in my family. It was just a way of life. The elephant in the middle of the room, that's how I recall growing up.

Hey Raven, how did you get into my brain and into my family??

[Jackiejdajda]

’The I Ching or Book of Changes’ (the Richard Wilhelm Translation)
'Keeping Still, Mountain' (this is easily found as each throwing of the coins or the dropping of the sticks pulls up a piece of wisdom..

'Keeping Still, Mountain'

The Judgment

KEEPING STILL. Keeping his back still
So that he no longer feels his body.
He goes to his courtyard
And does not see his people.
No blame.

True quiet means keeping still when the time has come to keep still, and going forward when the time has come to go forward. In this way rest and movement are in agreement with the demands of the time, and thus there is light in life.
The hexagram signifies the end and the beginning of all movement. The back is named because in the back are located all the nerve fibers that mediate movement. If the movement of the spinal nerves is brought to a standstill, the ego, with this restlessness, disappears as it were. When a man has thus become calm, he may turn to the outside world. He no longer sees in it the struggle and tumult of individual beings, and therefore he has the true peace of mind which is needed for understanding the great laws of the universe and for acting in harmony with them. Whoever acts from these deep levels makes no mistakes..

The Image..

Mountains standing close together:
The image of KEEPING STILL.
Thus the superior man
Does not permit his thoughts
To go beyond his situation.



I think this applies to what we are discussing here. One gets such a calmness when a person really sorts that other people are going to do what other people do.. And its okay to just sort ourselves..
In fact to really get it that one is allowed to sort themselves and not have to be vigilant towards others..

From Codependent No More … Melody Beattie page 119

This title got me its chapter 11 of the book..

Have A Love Affair With Yourself

This above all:
To thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the nite the day.
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

William Shakespeare..
(further down the page)

Most codependents suffer from the vague but penetrating affliction, low self-worth. We don’t feel good about ourselves, we don’t like ourselves, and we wouldn’t consider loving ourselves. For some of us, low self-worth is an understatement. We don’t merely dislike ourselves, we hate ourselves.


I know I have a real hard time with this.. Its like a constant mind tape of me picking on myself.. and if someone re-enforces it I am toast..

Jackie

[Janeytwo]

Hey Jackie! Hey All!

We don’t feel good about ourselves, we don’t like ourselves, and we wouldn’t consider loving ourselves. For some of us, low self-worth is an understatement. We don’t merely dislike ourselves, we hate ourselves.......I have a real hard time with this.. Its like a constant mind tape of me picking on myself.. and if someone re-enforces it I am toast..

Getting to where we recognize the trigger and then getting to where we can acknowledge its power and then overcoming that power.

I like what you wrote (the I Ching) about stillness. It reminds me of that quote (from the bible I think maybe - not sure). That "Be still and know I love you".

It's weird too because recovery - true recovery - requires action - so much action. It often requires driving (to therapy; to meetings); it requires tons of thought and introspection and then the movement of fingers over the keyboard to post; or the use of arm, face and hand muscles to pick up the phone and talk to someone.

Even the soul can't be still as it processes what the mind and heart hopefully learn.

But there is a need for silence; for non-action in order to reach the point where we can act.

I am thinking though of how AlAnon and AA teach a person to sit still and listen to others; listen with their hearts and with lack of ego; listen to the truth behind the words; behind the pain. The program teaches stillness through action then. Interesting.....