[agonz1984]

I just joined. I have posted only to try to provide a way for my daughter to either try to find me, or to know I'm looking for her. I'm a birthdad. Like a lot of the birthmoms that have posted, I was young at the time. Birthmom and I were 18 and had dated all through highschool. In many ways the story of our romance was typical. We were each other's "firsts" in so many ways. I was no saint (still not, I guess). Being a "typical" 18-year old guy isn't always an honorable thing. But what I went through has had to remain inside of me for so many reasons. We went through a lot of rejection and stigma for the situation we found ourselves in. We also found support from family and friends. It was hard, but could have been harder. What was hardest is that giving up our girl affected us so differently. I don't think anyone knew (or cared) what a birthfather was going to go through. What was expected from an 18 year old guy who got his girlfriend pregnant and now was giving the baby up for adoption? I became numb, emotionally. I found it hard to care about anybody after that, even my girlfriend. I was popular and outgoing. Since we guys aren't supposed to be weepy and emotional, I don't think anybody had a clue as to what I was keeping inside. In my entire life I have only broken down to cry once or twice. It's just not something I do, even when I lost my own mother when I was 10 years old. But in the couple of instances in my life when I did break down, I always knew why. I knew what I was feeling and had to let it out. The day I had to say goodbye to my daughter is still too hard to replay in my mind and harder for me to sort out. It was like a nightmare. We were able to take care of our girl in the nursery and in the hosptital room. I held her and was amazed every time I held her up to let her head come down to meet mine. That day when I said goodbye, I left the hospital room and cried uncontrollably. When an aquaintance of mine stopped me on the street, I held on to her as if she was my best friend helping me through this. The strange thing is, I still cannot sort out my feelings from that day. That is why it is so different from any other time that I have cried. Now with a family of my own, beginning a search for my girl who should be 18 years old now, I still have feelings that I find hard to deal with. I look for support from postings here. I can see that there is a difference in what I am going through as a dad, versus what a b-mom must go through. What I mean is, the fact that the mom carries the child inside of her must make for a different experience. I hurt and in some ways it's the same as what a birthmom goes through. But in some ways, it is not and I know that. I can't pretend to comprehend everything a birthmom describes, but I feel like no one understands what I went through and am going through now. I'm not sure if I can find the support I need. I just had to get this off my chest. I hope I haven't offended any of the birthmoms. I just need to learn more about what some of you are going through. I'd like to know what would be on the mind of an 18-year old adoptee. I could share so much regarding our decisions 18 years ago. I'm not sure who to share that with.

[Glas]

Yes there are others out there going through what we are. 19 years ago I made the hardest choice in my life just as you did. Often people see only whats on the surface cause its was the easiest to deal with. I don't really blame them for I have done that as well with different situations and often only show the shell of what I feel. I have just started the process to make it a bit easier for my son to find me and a find very little support for the birth-fathers. I try to take advice given to birth-mothers and apply it to me. More often then not I feel like a spectator though and the cards are stacked against me. Maybe because my foster brother and X wife who both were adoptee had no desires to find their parents.
Take heart in the fact that every situations different. In mine I gave my son the best life I could give him at the time. Even though I knew it would cost me a son, a father who disowned me a foster family that turned their back to me and a girlfriend. ( the last is to be expected considering the situation). Still knowing all this I would do the same knowing it was the best and right choice at the time.
I hope you find your daughter. Thank you for letting me know that I wasn't the only birth father that has let a decision haunt him for 18 + years

[Courtney Frey]

In Dr. James Dobson's book on Raising Boys he writes, "We have trained generations of men to deny any kind of emotion for showing emotion has been taught as a sign of weakness." He goes on to write a book filled with wonderful knowledge and advice for parents and really for society - on how we can re-train ourselves to get out of the "male trap" and to allow our male loved ones to express themselves in healthy ways.

Your posts made me think about this book - the difference in reality verses opinion. What we think should be true, and in fact, what really is.

I can't begin to tell you that I understand where you're coming from or even really how you're feeling. There is a difference in what occurs within both birthmothers and birthfathers - emotionally and physically. I do know however ... there is no shame in your expressing how you feel and what you're going through - that's what we are all here for. Regardless of gender or situation.

My heart breaks when I think about how lonely it must have been and continues to be for you - as birthfathers. There are many of us birthmothers on this board who did not recieve any kind of counceling or support at all ... the effects of which are damaging. In that sense ... I can relate - I can relate to how seperated and unattached you must have felt from the outside world, from yourself, and from your family. As if something disasterous had happened and you were the only witness and no matter how hard you try to tell others they simply can't understand because they didn't see it, feel it, or even know it happened. It feels so lonely - you feel so lost - the struggle to go on, to push it away - and yet the heaviness of it all - trying simply just to survive it - to do what is expected.

I just wanted to write - to validate your experience and your sorrows .... you have found a place where you won't be judged - either of you - as birthfathers. We are all here for the same reasons. Whatever we didn't recieve that we needed or should have gotten - whatever we feel and can't seem to understand or get through - or even simply just to read that we're not the only ones .... this is a place for that - this fellowship of souls like yourself - where none of us are male or female or right or wrong - but yet just hearts with heavy, gaping, holes that have no apparent differences at all.

My love to you ...
Courtney

[schatz]

Thank you for sharing the other side. I was certainly not offended to here that birthfathers hurt, too.

I recently felt validated in my feelings of loss by a male. He was the first flesh and blood person I have met since placing my daughter who could relate to my loss. While our experiences are very different, we have both lost our children, and it was a great comfort to me knowing that I had connected with someone who was experiencing some of the same emotions I am.

I hope you are able to continue processing your feelings and that you will meet your children someday.

[claudia456]

I'm an adult adoptee who met my b-father a little more than a year ago, To be honest I thought of him, wondered, fantasised, and mourned him more so than I did my b-mother, the reason is probably because I lost my a-father to death before I was ready to, I was 12 or 13, I knew my b-mom long before my b-dad and never was truely able to connect with her, our personalities are just opposite and she has never been warm towards me, at 18 I wasn't ready to meet my real dad, I was to absorbed in my social life and raising my own daughter, emotionally I'd have never made it through if I didn't wait until I did, I'm 25 now and still struggle with my personal issues of adoption, I searched for my dad for a long time and went through a lot to convince him to see me once, he was only 16 when I was born and never was told by my b-mom that I even existed, she was 20, my b-mom told me that she didn't want to burden him with a child??? so I could imagine his surprise and anger, along with many other emotions the day I called him.
When I finally met him it was beyond words emotionally, I've never shown him or told him of my feelings surrounding our meeting and trying to develop a relationship because I was raised not to be sucky about things, so to say the least it's hardened me in more ways than I like to admit, I truly want him to be in my life and get to know him as my dad, and I'm trying to be realistic and respect his space and family, he doesn't stay in contact with me as much as I'd like him to, and at times I give up on him, I guess I contribute to not having much contact because I'm very nervous and don't want to disrupt his life, I wanted to be a good thing for him not a problem, I worry about how his wife feels, his kids(my half sibs) and his own parents, do fathers like to discuss these issues with their adopted children? I'm not sure how to tell him what I feel or want from the relationship with him, if I was too honest would it scare him away? How would a man feel 25 years after the fact? and being found out of the blue without warning? Is it possible for them to still have a place in their heart for an older child they never knew?

[glbowman]

Hi,

I just read your post and I would like to tell you that it has really touched me. I am an adoptee and I recently met my birth mother. To be honest throughout my life I always kne wI wanted to find my birth parents and when I thought about doing it I always thought about my b mother, I'm not sure why. Now I would love to meet my birth father. He has never seen me and denied that I was seven his, but I still would love to meet him. In my opinion I think that he was 17 at the tmie a young man. He may not feel the same. But I am still keen to meet him-I fear rejection though. Meeting my b mum has completely changed my life-I am more whole and generally a happier person both in life and with myself.

You say how would an adoptee feel at 18, I can't tell you how your daughter feels but I can give you an insight into how I felt tot ry and help. I turned 18 and I was still emotionally immature-I thought I was ready, but I never actually got round to it-I couldn't have needed to do it then. I went to uni and after that felt I was mature enough and knew myself better. My birth mother tells me how she registered on the national register on my 18th birthday and after a couple of years no contact she thought oh no she is not going to come and find me-then when she had given up hope I did. I hope that yuor daughter will come and find you for both your sakes. I will eventually try and contact my birth father also. Are you still in contact with the mother of your daughter? My birth mum has offered to contact my father for me if I want her to. Maybe I will after reading your story and seeing how you feel. All you ever hear is the birth mothers story, i'm glad that you are brave enough to give your side too.

Gillian

[agonz1984]

From reading posts to this thread and others I'm learning a lot. Sometime as an adult one begins to realize the differences between men and women. I mean, of course we're different. But when you marry and begin to live as a family, it really drives the point home. Once we have children, it becomes even more obvious. Moms are different than dads. Our relationships we forge with our children are different. And it goes both ways. Our childrens' preceptions regarding mom and dad are different. I know, it's not the same in every family. But I think most would agree that there are these differences....we even celebrate or appreciate them. In my household now, mom is the nuturing one, the teacher. I'm more the peace keeper, orderly, the disciplinarian. There are so many more noticeable things, but you get my point. I always figured, this is the way God made us....to need each other. So now I think when the situation involves losing a child who is adopted out...these differences that are inherent, become very confusing. I mean, when I think about how some adoptees have described such a longing for b-mom, but not really thinking much about b-dad...I truly understand that. My own kids will long for their mom in ways that sometimes make me a bit jealous. Don't get me wrong. I have a wonderful relationship with my kids. But I'm not mom! Mom works full time and it takes it's toll on the kids. When my work gets busy, they'll miss me, but not like mom! Because my family life is so good right now, this makes me smile to think about. I appreciate my wife so much. But I know this phenomena must be wreaking havoc on the emotions of my adoptee, birthdaughter. I'll understand if she longs to meet b-mom but not necessarily me. I hope I have the opportunity to let her know how much I have missed her, longed for her, and love her. To address another subject brought up, it is very confusing for my current wife to deal with this part of my past. I have to be understanding about that. I can now see the deep feelings of loss and confusion, even anger and regret that those of us touched by adoption experience. I know she cannot fully understand what we are going through and I can't expect her to. I have not talked with her about my desire to reach out to my daughter, now that she is 18 yrs old. And our kids are so young, and I'll need to work out how and when to explain things to them with my wife. That cannot be my decision alone. So I must first work with my wife to try to explain things to her. This scares me a bit. I know it hurts her to think about my past. I guess she feels threatened. Maybe even cheated out of being the only mother of my children. I don't know. I truly don't, so forgive me if I'm way off base, trying to think about how she feels. But I do know, it's not like talking about any other subject. That's probably why many birthfathers are scared to meet b-children. Maybe their afraid of the affect it will have on their current families. To me, it's all part of the responsibility I'll have to face. Thanks for writing everyone.

[Courtney Frey]

agonz ~ Your letter is truly an eye opener and these posts on this thread have truly taken many of us beyond yet another wall ... how our birthfathers feel and how they were and continue to be effected due to relinquishment.

You brought up an incredably important issue agonz, one that I've never truly explored but since reading your post am thrilled that it was mentioned - the dynamics and differences in instinctual relationships between fathers and their children verses mothers and their children and does that effect a possible reuinion relationship? If so, how?

As a wife and mother who raises three children I am, like you, involved and committed to a family. And I have to agree with you, although my husband is a wonderful father and has great relationships with all three of our children - he may be gone for weeks at a time (with work) and while the children miss him (daddy wrestles with them!), they escape without any emotional confusion or need. I, on the other hand, can't leave for twenty minutes for a hair appointment without a hundred questions on where i"m going, why I'm going, when am I coming back, and mommy, why can't we go with you?" I do not, like you, think this has anything to do with children loving or feeling closer to their mothers - but that the "bond" children have with mommy is just different.

On the other hand, over the years research has shown several interesting factors:

1.) Sons are more likely to be closer to their mothers than their fathers.
2.) Daughters are more likely to be closer to their fathers.
3.) Male adoptee's are less likely to search for birthparents than are female adoptee's.

Numbers One and Two are truth, at least in my family - my son is definantly the "mama's boy" - while my two daughters are daddy's girls. They would opt more quickly to go with daddy somewhere than would my son who is constantly needing love, validation, and nurturing from me. And in my opinion I think that male adoptee's are less likely to search, not necessarily because they don't "want" too - but because males are least likely to express or divulge in emotional issues. We have taught our male generation to be "tough" - to "suck it up." (Dr. James Dobson in "Raising Boys.")

In regards to your situation with expressing your feelings with your wife - I am truly honest when I say how impressed I am that you've thought that far into it - not to make ill-assumptions of husbands (I have a great one!) but the majority of men aren't likely to delve that far into how their wives might or may be feeling about certain issues.

She is probably feeling exactly what you wrote - a little cheated, a little angry - and perhaps even a bit threatened. As wives, we create and nurture our homes and families and we can get failry possessive when it comes to them. She is probably not feeling too great about the posibility of having to "share" you - or the possibility that your children will have to "share" you. And, if your writing reflects your character at all - you know this and are aware of it. My suggestion to you is that you continue to validate her role as mother and wife - make the extra effort for a while to compliment her days with reassurances that she is, in fact, "Head Queen of the family" - women are smart - she'll probably pick up on that, but it's okay. I know whenever I tend to get down about my son, my actions and emotions reflect that and my husband's instinct is to "fix" it - but he's learned through the years that I simply just need the comfort of knowing I am allowed the emotion and I am still loved.

I have a feeling that as long as your wife knows, in her heart, that she is your number one priority and that nothing else can take the true focus off of her and your children - she will get through this. It just takes time.

On another note - my husband never really had any "issues" in regards to my being a birthmother - BUT, my son did and does. He felt extremely threatened of his "place" in mommy's heart - and for two years refused to discuss his 1/2 brother or even to be around any talk of him. He denied his existence and at one time even approached me and asked, "Don't forget that I'm your son, okay mommy?" The news that he was not my only son really got to him and I had to be VERY careful with him. Recently, just this year, he brought home some art work that his class did. At the top of the paper was a baby photo of him and then underneath were 3 things he had written about himself. The first two things were, "I have a cat and a dog" and "My favorite sport is football." Oddly, we do not have a cat or a dog and my son does NOT like football - never watches it and doesn't enjoy playing it. Strange. THe third item was ... "And I have one brother." While his admission to this was heart-felt to me, I realized that in it's context were several "make beliefs" - he is still not comfortable with this, doesn't know "where" to put it.

WHile I am a strong believer in honesty to loved ones and that keeping secrets can only do harm - I also believe in being assertive to those loved ones needs and emotional abilities. You are so right in not telling your children just yet - until you have this "figured" out and until your wife is at peace with it. Obviously, the kids will ask her questions when dad's not around! lol

I've gone on and on ... thank you SO much for posting ... these are things that don't get discussed enough.

courtney

[agonz1984]

Courtney, you and others not only help me understand myself better, but you help me understand moms and kids. I'm blown away sometimes. Thank you. Just to clarify something, I too believe that the bond between children and mom and the bond with dad is different, not based on amount of love or strength of bond. I was LOL at the part where you describe your hubby being gone for weeks compared to your leaving for 25 minutes. I can so totally relate. And like I said, I'm not sad about that. I cherish it and really appreciate my wife for it. Thanks so much.

[girlOK68]

I,m so glad to see a bdad looking for my father but, i am not your daughter i wish i was i am 33. I hope you find her soon you sound like a good dad because so many girls donot have a dad to look up too!
I have my adad to look up to but i still wish i could be friends with my bdad.I wonder if he is looking for me? i have 2 great kids that i am proud of and would like to meet him! They know all about me being adopted.
He chose to leave me in a neighbor,s house when i was 1 but there must have been a reason for that i want to know. I have a bmom too but can,t find her either no name all i know is they lived in Oklahoma city when i was born Mr.&Mrs. John Allen at Apt. 3c at 317 w. Park in 1968.Sorry i am just hoping to ring a bell with anyone so i can meet them.I have 2 sis. and 2bro. that i don,t know that may not know that i am alive either!Sorry for rambling on.
girlOK1968

[Courtney Frey]

The following is an e-mail I recently recieved and was a bit shocked to see how similar her e-mail was to what we've been discussing about male's searching verses female's and so forth - so I'm copying it here for all of you to read!!

>>>I am a birthmother who waited 36 years for my son to contact me. 12 years ago I searched for him - I just couldn't wait any longer. I wrote him and told him about why I "gave him up" and hoped he would be receptive. He was anything but that. At least he wrote back, but he told me that he never thought about me as a child, never had any curiousity, and basically wished me well and didn't want me in his life.

I then turned to his mother, thinking if I explained things to her she might understand where I was coming from, telling her that I just wanted to know if he was alright, if he was happy and to meet him. I told her that she had him for 25 years and since I gave him to her out of love that I hoped she would help me in meeting him out of her love for him also. She never responded.

I found out that he was getting married the following year and sent him a card wishing him all the best and sending him pictures of me and my kids. He wrote back to me telling me to cease and desist. He didn't want me in his life. I was devastated to say the least. I knew at that point I had to put him away again inside my heart and let it go.

Everyone told me that one day he would change his mind. I had always hoped that but couldn't think about it because I was so hurt and didn't want to be hurt again. So I just kept thinking about him on his birthday, mother's day and knew I had to go on as I had for the other 25 years.

Last December 5th I got a telephone call. It was him! He wasn't ready for a relationship 12 years prior, but he was ready for a relationship now. I told him if I could have I would have been on a plane the next day but told him my son was about to have a baby and I was going to be a grandma. He told me that I already was a grandma and that I had a grandson and a granddaughter. I always knew that somewhere in side of me - I just always knew that.

We spoke for a couple of hours that night. Then we got off and talked on the computer and then again on the telephone. We have talked everyday and at the beginning about 2-7 times a day. I have been there 4 times and he went to Vegas to meet me and my mom in June and then he came to my house this summer and met our whole family for my mom's 85th birthday. My daughter is going with me in November to meet his family.

I can offer this to birthmother's - never give up hope. I waited 36 years. I was always told that boys are usually not as anxious to make contact and that I shouldn't expect too much. I can tell you that that is not always true. Especially in my case. My son is so loving and wanting of this relationship now. He is more like me than the two children I raised. Our personalities are so very similar. We look alot alike. Our humor is very similar. We have been told we are two peas in a pod.

He has given me peace in my life. He has filled a hole that was inside of me. I am a complete person now. I have been happier this past year than I have been in my life. People tell me that I always look so happy.

Good things do happen if you just wait and are patient. This was a relationship that I was just so sure would never happen after the way he reacted 12 years ago BUT after he had his own children I think he did start wanting to know more.

He has seen pictures of his brother as a baby - it was like looking in a mirror - he saw himself. He has another family who he loves very much and who loves him BUT he has my family who he looks like and who he is growing to love.

To receive a mother's day card from him was more than I could have ever asked for. To receive a birthday card from him as again too much. But the best was for me to be able to send him a birthday card and wish him a happy birthday for the first time in 37 years.

Life has funny twists and turns in it and for me it has come full circle. I have been blessed with two children here and been so blessed with my first son who has come home. I have loved him from the day he was born and I am here for him whenever he needs me. He knows that.

I just know that anyone who is waiting like I was, never give up hope. You just never know. I wish other people the completeness that I have been blessed to get and hope other children find their way home too.

Thanks for letting me talk.<<<

[eallen21]

You know I am very happy to see that there are actual birthfathers out there who actually care about their child. That is a very sore subject in my story.

[girlOK68]

Dear, eallen21
I don't know my birth father yet. I hope one day to do that or at least see him.What actually happened to you? Did you meet him or not? By the way my name at birth was Lisa Allen
that is funny if that is your last name.Please write back and tell me.
girlok68

[Txs-birthsis]

For Agonz and Glas

I as a finder of my dad(I was raised by momw/ no dad), ADMIRE each of you so.. I did find my daddy--and we had a great relationship. I wanted to share with each of you what you child maybe feeling at the young age they are now..about the missing birthparents. I didnt even know my dads name until I was 11.. BUT all along I longed for him.. I had a step dad--that once I een told him"well atleast I knew one dad"--and to that he replied " I AM YOUR ONLY DAD" That was a bnad aid to my heart and soul--I needed to hear that when I did. BUT my step-dad(who to this day I still call dad--my bio dad is daddy) his actions in later years proved that statement NOT to be true--So once again I felt I ahd lost a mans love--Little girls DO require the good wholesome love of an adult male. They need that--I dont know WHY I just know they do. Anyway sorry i am getting off track. What I am trying to say is up until I was about 16--my daddy was my every thought.. my whole world--and every fantasy--I made him to be whatever I thought I needed at teh time.. when I reach 16 I began to relaize how hard my mother strugggled to raise me alone.. by the time i was just over seventeen I was pregnant and my boyfriend had pull a great disappearing act--SO to know those feelings I began to HATE THAT MAN---I turned all the good feelings into pure hate.. I wanted to hurt him.. He ahd hurt my momma (whom I felt I ahd been protecting all my life) and he had abandoned me! These feelings went on for many years --I guess until I was about 25--at that time I realized that no matter what--Hatting my daddy was hating a part of myself. I slowly and cautiously began searching for him--It took me four years to locate him. I contcted him by letter first(a christmas card to be exact) and got NO reply--I can not tell you how the HATE welled back up--and confusing--I had tlaked myself into believeing "he was young and dumb--then that he was just scared to try adn find me--as he got older" and the NO REPLY was a huge slap in my face.. So I waited--trying not to let the hate turn into consuming my life again.. I finally tlaked myself into calling him.. and I did in March.. From our first converstaion he was honest as coould be--He explained with NO excuses--that basically recieving my letter--First he could tell just by the way I wrote and the things I said that I was his daughter(i did put a touch of I am tough stuf and dont mess with me--as a protection to my heart in the letter) ( lol--I do hand write better then I type)Then he said he looked at the pictures I sent--and had the feeling of looking into the lirror before he went bald--and as he viewed my sons pictures--he said he creid becasue it was like seeing a picture of himself as a boy--and he had no pics of him..

He also told me--that the reason he didnt repy ot the letter was honestly because he DIDNT KNOW what to say to me..

Okay all this to explain in my own long winded way--We that are missing and searching.. feel things in stages..(just about everyone related to adoption or missing parents I ahve ever tlaked say the same things) We make yp wonderful birth parents as children--they can be who ever and what ever we want--as we get older and a lil more mature--we begin to realize that more then likely our fantasy is just that--A FANTASY--and we began to get mad , since we dont know who to be mad at--it usually ends of being the birth parent... as we mature adn begin to live in the real world where our parents can not protect us anymore--we begin to see that everything is not as it seems--and we began to wonder--and hope--and want to know.

I have so much respect for you two guys for thinking and caring about your children--as close as daddy and I were--he admittly never even thought about me--Never mentioned me to any of his three wives..or his other children(who he also abandoned--and paid the price till he died) Unfortunatley my daddy was not as good of person as you two are--and as much as I loved him--I have to say --your posting, and caring is just so admirable. I am glad also that you are in touch with your feelings--Daddy found out too late what is was to feel the love of a child.. He passed away four months after I found him--and had God not blessed me with those four months(and daddy too I guess) then daddy would ahev died alone--adn been buried in a paupers grave..with noone related to him even knowing--You two guys have let lifes experience turn you into good caring men--daddy used his life as an excuse and blamed the world for his troubles. He began to realize after I found him what he ahd done to himself--but as I said it was too little too late--his lifestyle killed him.

[Txs-birthsis]

Claudia

As I read your post it brought back so many memories--of my beginning search and early days of knowing my daddy(I wont go thru the long story as I already posted it above) Anyhoo. in my opinion.. I think you should write out your feeling for your daddy..all the good, bad and the ugly... That is what I did in the first letter to my dad--I was honest and sometimes brutal..even after contacting him by phone--I wrote(at his request) telling him again how I felt.. When I met him face to face--I got mad at him for acting like everything was just hunky dorey-(lol he had bought me a dog--"cause flowers dont last long enough") So I threw in his face that my BC stated in big bold red letter--that I was ILLIGIMATE...and it was all his fault--and HE CRIED--let me tell you when you can make you hero cry it is very humbling--tell your dad all you told us--you DESERVE atleast that much--to be allowed to let him know--Writing it is so much easier then looking at someone and trying to put emotions into words--So tkae all the time you need and write it all down--and email--or snail mail it to him..if nothing else it will be easier to deal with--once you get it all out. It will also be easier for him to deal with on his own--in his own envoriment--on his own time. Dad and I never discussed those lettr--but I knew he read them--I could always tell be his tone--and when he passed away--adn I ahd to go clean out his room...they(the letters) were right beside his bed--He read each of them everynight-(so his roomate tells me) The letters helped him get to know me--the real me--I am very reserved person in face to face situations..but by writing the feelings--I had nothing to hide--I was protectd by miles..I surely hope this helps you--I know how you feel--and I know the agony adn self doubt in this situation..