[FauxClaud]

Truthfully, I beleive the other way is to have society in general be aware of the less than warm and fuzzy version of adoption..make it not the "great and nobel sacrafice" made by a mom for an unplanned preganacy just so her baby can have "everything"..
I mean, yeah..I agree..the agencies are NOT going to do it..then they'd just talk themselves out of business..it is mostly $$. Maybe not on the individule end..I have talked to people who really think it's "helping", but 1.6 billion dollars? On a large scale..that's some profit!
It depends on who is doing the counseling..an agency? Again, I feel that it would be more of the party line. Talking a mom into being "happy and content"...it's very possible, but is it real? For instance, I had just had ALOT of stressful things happen recently, and I was talking to a friend. Obviously seeing my sress, discomfort and unhappiness made her uncomfortable. She didn't really want to hear it, she didn't really want to empathese, she didn't want to think about it ( and in this case, bacause she could have help eleviate some of it, but was choosing not to)...her suggestion was that I should "get something to make me feel better". Make me pretend that it was all OK, even though it was not. I told her that I did not want to "feel ok"..that life was tough at that time and I deserved to feel crappy about it all for a bit... I'd feel better when things we're really better..and I did.
I see the same thing with moms...We make the world feel uncomfortable. Uncomfortable that we could leave our children for whatever the reason, uncomfortable that we feel badly afterwards, uncomfortable that the grief is so consuming... no one wants to see it really. Everyone wants us to be ok, move on, be content..the suffering makes folks uncomfortable.
I see the reality of adoption as it is terrible sad for the moms..we do have huge loss, grief, pain...and it does keep on going all though out life..it morphs and changes as the years go by and the child grows as the adoptio continus to effect family members and lovd ones who might not even had been alive or around when the decision took place. Yeah, it's much easier to think "positive" about all the happy things, the courage, the good aspect, but NOT at denying the loss...for, IMO, it just gets buried and comes out in another way..or waits, dormant for years until a catalyst brings it forth like a festering boil...
Maybe if there was enough knowledge and acknowledgement of post adoption greif and loss of a natural mum, then we could be helped THOUGH it, but I don't see the general population of therapists really getting it. They are, like general society, under the assumptions that it is a good thing...so that's why, bringing it back full circle, I would LOVE to see a large revamp of the publics beliefs on adoption.
I am realitic enough to know that in some form it will always be with us, but the glorification gets to me.
agg..sorry..I can go on and on about this...

[banjo]

Hi, I had very little counselling but the health professionals did try to talk me out of my decision. ( I wish I had listened) I was warned by a health professional that the grief from the loss could hit me in 5 to 10 years - so they were on to it in many ways but I was closed down. I was too messed up about my relationship break up and then having an unplanned pregnancy on top of that. perhaps if I had of had some really good counselling for a long period of time during my pregnancy addressing a number of issues going on in my life at the time, things could have been different. I'm coming around to accepting the fact that I can't turn back the clock and I want to move forward with my life. I've spent the last four years grieving my bchild's loss on top of the grief I got at placement. I finally have had counselling - which I paid for - this forum has really helped - and I'm part of a support group. So I am finally getting the help I need. But I have to agree that the loss etc never goes away, it just has to be managed on a daily basis. It's interesting that women I've spoken to who have suffered the death of a child also say that they never get over the death but they learn to live with it. I would never tell a woman to get over the death of her child or to forget that child. Yet bmothers are suppose to get over it - and society does not understand why most of us can't. Dah. lol Banjo

[timni]

Hi everyone here. I am a potential amom and I am so heartbroken over this thread. I am very close with E who would like us to adopt her baby. We are about 5 weeks away from EDD. E and I have a great friendship, which was in place before all of this adoption stuff came about. I have offerred to provide councelling for her and she has refused, more than once, I feel as though my hands are tied. I can't force her to talk to someone other than me, but I feel like I am not the person she should be talking to about this since I am the pamom. I read about all of the pain you ladies have experienced and I really REALLY don't want E to have to suffer so much. Any advise or suggestions?
Also just FYI we will be having an open adoption. As E comes over to our house to hang out anyway. The baby will always know who her bmom is. We are planning to go to E's house the day after the baby comes home just to solidify the open arrangement for us all. Any general advise on mistakes to avoid? I hope all of you can find some sort of peace in your hearts.

[levigram]

Elaine,

How much counseling have you and your husband received (or information) about open adoption? Where or not your pbmom takes advantage of your offer, it is imperative you and your husband do so! Please, please do NOT go to an adoption agency for your counseling. Call a counselor in your phonebook and ask them who they would recommend as an adoption expert in your community. If they don't know call another one. You are the one responsible for the information if pbmom is not taking the responsibility. I think you will be ok to continue AS LONG AS you get the counseling and pertinent information and understand all the potential issues and future challenges you will face along with the blessing!

God Bless

[79nic]

No, I don not want agencies to get better at convincing a mom to be more complacent and "subscribe" to the program. But we have to face the concept that adoption will go on. Yes, the agency can warn potential birthmothers, but that will never happen. Agencies know the truth about the suffering, the long term consequences. They choose to not do anything about it. But why should they. THEY ARE A BUSINESS ONLY! Why do you not think intensive therapy/counseling before/ after relinquishment will not help a **. This is the only hope. There is no other way.

Hi sammax,

We started to talk a little in chat the other night, and I got booted out.....

But I wanted to say that while adoption certainly will go on, as you pointed out, I think that it IS possible for us to reduce the number of adoptions that occur. Australia's relinquishment system is much, much better than the U.S.'s, and the tiny number of placements in Australia suggest that adopting a similar model here in the U.S. could bring some hope here, too.

As for my experience with counseling:

I sought outside counseling during my pregnancy, along with the agency "counseling" (I use counseling in quotes, because the agency counselor was not certified in counseling, nor did she have a master's degree or doctorate--she simply had a bachelor's in social work). Personally, I despise that agency social workers are given the title "counselor," as I believe it is misleading--often these people really are not qualified counselors.

My outside counseling was good for me, but... my therapist did not have much experience with adoption (certainly none with open adoption).

I ended up placing my baby, and I now regret it.

Post-placement, I avoided the agency and did not go back for counseling, ever. However, I am back in therapy with the psychologist I saw during the pregnancy, and he has been a tremendous help, despite his lack of open-adoption experience. (He's just a really really good psychologist, fortunately.)

I have, however, been back to my agency once. Less than a month ago, in fact. It's now been four years since I placed my daughter; and I finally got up the nerve to go back to the agency and speak with the birthparent social worker (different from the one I had at the time of placement) about the flaws in their counseling and relinquishment process.

She was quite open to listening to me. I brought the Concerned United Birthparents booklet written by Heather Lowe with me, and used it as the jumping off point for our discussion.

Since then, I have received some encouraging news from the national headquarters of the agency.

I'm not naive enough to believe drastic changes will come any time soon, if ever...... as you said, agencies don't want to put themselves out of business. That is why I agree with Claud, we need to change SOCIETAL views on adoption; we also need to change LAWS.

However, I do think I was heard by the particular social worker I spoke with.

As for eliminating the grief and sorrow and guilt and such... that is not going to happen. Adoption is a loss, it's going to create complicated, negative feelings in the people who experience it.

[loveccl]

I actually was offered counseling after the adoption and the adoptive parent had to pay for it tell my sons 1st b-day. To my knowledge they never made a payment. My "shrink" was wonderful. I still think of her 10 years latter. She saw me even though she never got paid. She really helped me work through alot. I depended on her and freaked when I missed a session. If I didn't have her I would have been completely lost. No one in my world could even comprehend me. My best friends to this day still say I was crazy. I have had a hard time dealing with things and she didn't "cure" me. She did help me through the dark times when I was surounded by black. I wish I had gotten pre-adoption counseling. I was naive and thought I could got back to being 16 like my friends. I was slapped in the face with reality.

Some of you know that I have NO USE for my adoption agency. Knowing now that they let me place my child into the hands of a adoptive couple with the dad having a prior drug conviction. I also think we don't have a voice. We just have each other. People and ignorant and they just don't get what being a birhtmother is. Its not standing in from of the local grocery store with a sign for someone to adopt our babies. (like they were cute little puppies) Its beyond love and hope! Even when we want to scream about how unfair it all is there is some one saying "you know what you did". Maybe a birthmother will be president one day and then we'll have a voice.

Wow...ok what was this all supposed to be about. Sorry if I rambled on.

HUGS to all,

Loveccl

[loveccl]

Oh, just FYI I recently met my bio brother's adoptive parents. They are the greatest people. The adad gave me a hug. Adoption does work and it is wonderful. I got screwed, but my little brother got the world. I love them for loving him sooo much. Just thought I'd add a happy thought to this thread.

loveccl

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by sammmax1

But we have to face the concept that adoption will go on. Yes, the agency can warn potential birthmothers, but that will never happen. Agencies know the truth about the suffering, the long term consequences. They choose to not do anything about it. But why should they. THEY ARE A BUSINESS ONLY! Why do you not think intensive therapy/counseling before/ after relinquishment will not help a **. This is the only hope. There is no other way.

I believe it is bigger than just having good counseling. I agree with EggyMother24 that is is more about society's attitudes than it is about giving expectant parents information and counseling. Society still has the warm, fuzzy, isn't-the-birthmother-an-angel view (until the baby is born, when we are then asked to move on and forget about it.) Expectant moms are coming into adoption with the same views as society. I have worked with hundreds of expectant moms over the years. Some will listen, many will not. Denial is a powerful thing. So while counseling will help some, it will not help all.

And I also disagree with your take that agencies cannot provide unbiased counseling, and only independant counseling services should be allowed. I know quite a few agencies that do real options counseling ans well as a fair number of "independants" that are in cahoots with lawyers and facilitators. "Independance" does not guaruntee adequate counseling.

[abcg1977]

I know I have no business posting here but, I will keep this short. I am an adoptee not a birthmom. I am reunited as of one year ago. My b-mom recieved no councelling before or after my birth. My parents who raised me only recieved minimal councelling that they sought out. I also have one friend that relinquished and however I did not know her at the time of relinquishment we have spoken about this very subject and she did not recieve any therapy of any sort. That was about 13 years ago.

My point is I am very glad you are doing this, my reunion has been full of having my b-mom repeat all the mantra's she was fed from the social worker she consulted with in the hospital once. "I did this because I loved you". "This was the best choice for us both". Blah Blah Blah. Not that it wasn't partially true but, so much of it was just "stuff" said to make it through.

I am now a reuntited adoptee with no resources of help. I can not find one therapist with any experiance or training in the grief councelling and issues related with adult adoptees or reunited adoptee's. I hope that in your experiance of helping birth mother's (which I think is wonderful) you will in the future expand you research and become an expert in the whole scope of adoption. For so many of us on all points of the triad this forum is all there is. It is great to have but, sadly it is not enough.

Thanks, Ang.

[loveccl]

Well last night when I posted I did my usual glance and then posted. I thought I'd take a couple minutes and read what you all said and reply....

First...As someone totally consumed by adoption as a third generation bmom in my family to give a son up for adoption. My uncle, my brother and my son were all given up. Maybe this thread is meant to focus on the negative in order to change it. Let me remind you that no matter how much you'd like to change it MY arms will still be empty. I would still have given up my son. I don't know maybe I'm willing to accept my decision and move on. Crazy, I know accept the decisions we made to become birthmothers and CELEBRATE who we are. Getting mad and being negative is why the world views us all as crazy. The world thinks we should hide in shame because thats what we do. Well I'm done being hidden in a hole and running from the simple fact that I am a birthmother. I hope that there are laws put in place to protect the adoption system but not to keep a childless couple from becomming a parent. I'd hate to think a future birthmom is reading this and thinking she should just keep her baby. Yes, I was betrayed, but adoption isn't bad. I know you all are going to chew at me for this reply but it won't be the first time I was in trouble here.

I hope you can all see the happiness that adoption brings.

Hugs,
Loveccl

[bromanchik]

No one is saying adoption is bad. However, I know too many birthmoms who would have made wonderful parents. They were pushed into their decision by family and friends who were ashamed they got pregnant outside of marriage or because they had no support. Society, though more accepting of single parenting, still harbors a lot of ill will towards single parents.

The original poster felt this is best addressed by counseling. (Which I have always supported) I just think it goes deeper. That counseling may help some, but that ingrained attitudes of society in general (including the expectant parents themselves) also need to change. Counseling is not a panacea for what is happening in the adoption industry today.

This discussion is not so much about our individual experiences and our processing of them, but of general adoption reform.

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by abcg1977

I am now a reuntited adoptee with no resources of help. I can not find one therapist with any experiance or training in the grief councelling and issues related with adult adoptees or reunited adoptee's.

E-mail me privately. I know people all over, maybe I can help you find someone.

BTW< How old are you?

[DavidKed]

But we have to face the concept that adoption will go on.

I agree with what Nic79 said. The Australian system is WAY better. While adoption may go on and while adoption might be the right choice in many cases, there is no reason that we must accept it in its current form.

The whole concept that better counseling will help birthparents misses the point, IMHO. I agree that it goes much much deeper. I think there needs to be a more holistic approach to helping birthparents which encompasses both far better protection of them and a change in societal attitudes towards them.

Also, on the counseling topic - even if a birthparent were to receive counseling there is little to believe that they will receive adaquate or unbiased counseling. It is quite scary when you read about anti-birthparent groups like the National Counsel for Adoption training 15,000 counselors with slanted ideas about adoption.

[abcg1977]

Loveccl, I don't think anyone is aching to attack you. I have a hard time understanding a few of your views but, they are yours and that is ok. I don't want to imply that I think adoption is horrible. It is not. It is a thing that will go on and in many cases it is beneficial for many people involved. I was simply very glad to hear someone choosing this for their life's work recognize that potential birthmother's do need at the very least the open offer of therapy. After experianceing my own reunion I realized that there are many issues that have never been addressed on either end of things. For my birthmother and myself. When I found her I found a strong ,beautiful, capable and smart mother, executive and friend. As I got to know her I found a broken fifteen year old hiding inside that person and, she needs to be set free.

I am glad you feel good about your plan you made for your son. I simply hold to the belief that even if you choose, for whatever reason, to not parent a child, in many cases there are wounds left that only that mother and child can help each other with. I read you are a third generation birthmother, have you ever really talked to a third generation adoptee? Well, I am one. Although my family is full of love and happiness it has also been full of heartbreak and silent torment. There is a flip side to your choice. We have none.

Back to the original topic. As a person touched by adoption, who loves a birthmom a lot. I'd love to see them get more help. There should be no shame involved in living through what they already have to. You should not feel shame for bringing a child to life. That is not a bad thing. These mom's saying they felt shame is just proof we are to judgemental as a society. As far as this being and indusrty, well I hate that fact. i am not a product and my birthmather was not a distributor. We have to change the views of this country because until we realize these are human souls we are dealing with, IMHO nothing will change.

Good luck to you all, Ang.

[marimari]

Counseling, in theory, seems just what is needed. But, how do you prepare through counseling a young birth mother for what is to come down the road? Will advising her that she has made the right decision on behalf of her child...will that be enough? Will counseling her that she can have other children someday..will they replace the relinquished child? Will telling her that she can now go on with her life "as if" none of this had happened, will that take away her aching arms? When she is old enough and settled somewhat in her life, when she dares to visit her past, will counseling have had the desired impact and she won't feel a thing...oh wait, she probably won't anyway, because that may well be the goal of counseling, huh, to numb her enough, to just forget about it...will that be the goal? Will counseling help her feel better knowing that her child is with a two-parent family that can actually love and provide for her child...will it help her forget that she gave birth to this child whom she bonded with for every moment of every day for nine months? Will counseling relieve her of any and all guilt? If it can do that and more, I say, yes, bring it on!

Lets not also not forget to counsel these adoptive parents who feel so incomplete themselves that they need to willingly participate in a system that takes a baby away from one mother and gives it to another...who the hell does that in good conscience? Who deemed one mother better than another and based on what...economics? marital status? education? What hard and fast guidelines are out there that can guarantee an adoptive child that that parents that are bidding for him or her are more fit, more capable of love than the original mother? What guarantee can you give to me that says with cetainty that those parents will remain together and love my child more than I could ? Tell me, what kind of magic counseling is there that talkes away the pain of infertility? What kind of counselor convinces that mom and dad that adopting a baby will replace the ones they've lost or can't conceive?

What kind of counseling will truthfully be able to state that removing a child from its mother and giving it to strangers is for the best interest of the child? Does it not go against all the laws of nature?

And what type of counseling will be available for the adopred child who wonders why he or she wasn't acceptable, good enough, lovable enough for the original mother to keep? If she was flawed, is it not possible that said child will feel flawed as well? What type of counseling will be available for the adoptive parents and that child as they grow...who will be there to help them through identity issues, bonding problems...will someone explain that the child has just lost the one and only person that they depended on entirely for their life...will someone tell the parents that the child is in pain and that, no, they can never replace that parent anymore than that child can replace the child of their genetic make up that they yearned for. As you may have surmised, I am a birth mother who relinquished against all that my heart and soul told me to do...I followed the knowledgeable advice of the social workers and counselors of the time (1970). I did go to one session after I signed my son away, two momths after his birth; I could not go back. I don't believe that I felt it would help me...I would take care of myself. I no longer trusted a system that would not protect my son and me..that would not help us to remain together, intact. I knew it would be B.S...more propaganda to convince me. No, I don't believe in adoption as it is now or was...I think at the least if we as a society care so much for our children, we have our work cut out for us in providing the resources to keep families together..no, not endless welfare...rather we can provide for their well fare by keeping them with their families and helping to strengthen those families...that might be an idea for counseling, huh...helping families stay tohether?