[RiverGal]

I was determined I was not going to post, but the more I read, the more confused I got. This is turning into another pissing match and I find that to be sad. This is a public forum. People post questions. Why is it if the answers are not in agreement, then they are judged to be biased or cold-hearted? numbr1dbcksfan posted:

Adoptive parents here post whatever they want and are great at supporting one another--no matter how selfish or ridiculous their whine is... but it is not that same safety net for birthparents..they are run off by not just adoptive parents, but also birthparents.

Why are they "run off?" Because opinions differ? It is blanket statements like this that keep the gap widening between triad sides when we should be working to bridge the abyss. The very a-mom you are attacking is one who has painfully turned down adoptions because she is so determined to raise her children in an environment where the birthparents are part of their lives. She has actually gone as far as to have the birthparents staying in the home. I hardly think that qualifies as a "selfish,ridiculous whine."

AJ-- PLEASE DO NOT let statements like above bring you down. You HAVE to do what you have to do to stay with us. I know that when you are down it is so easy to listen to the one bad statement and ignore the 100 supportive statements. It IS OK to back off and take time to heal!

Like what??? Perhaps you are letting you obvious dislike for dl cloud your thinking. I can see nothing in her post to classify it as a "bad statement." It doesn't appear to be AJ who is upset with anything dl or Amom2Two posted. From the following statement, I think you are the one who is wound up:

I'll back off, but not because I'm wrong, because when I see people being so blatantly mean it hurts me as much as the person it is directed to. And this is all making me want to cry.

I haven't seen ANYONE being "blatantly mean," at least not to AJ. What I see is that Brandy posted a very insightful response, which several members from ALL sides of the triad agreed with and expounded on, but they are under fire for offering their opinions based on what they feel is best for the child. I'm confused at your obvious hostility.

Renda said:

This for what it is worth is how I see it, I live in a the uk, were there are only closed adoptions.

I feel simply that if someone wishes to give a child up for adoption, then they should do just that, and give the child a chance for a completely new life.

To have another 'mummy' visiting now and again can be confusing, it is so much easier for the child to grow up with just one set of parents.

With all due respect, this is not the UK, and all parties chose to enter into an OPEN adoption. I don't know how you have come to the conclusion that what is right for you is right for everyone. There are many members here who swear by their open adoption plan. Not all situations are the same. In the US, there are 3 general options: Open, semi-open, and closed.

AJ -- I realize you are in an emotional whirlpool. There have been some great suggestions offered, from books to counseling. I would encourage you to reread Brandy's post regarding the long-term implications of bailing out now. Even though you are not the primary caregiver, you have a place in your child's life. As time passes, things will become more "normal." Surely if you trusted the a-mom enough to raise your child, you can trust her enough to sit and discuss your feelings with her. She just might be a lot like Amom2Two...compassionate and understanding of your feelings, and the two of you can reach a comfortable middle ground. Best of luck to you.

--D

[bromanchik]

Originally posted by debsdone
I think it is important to be clear about a few things. First and foremost...becoming a parent, by any means, creates a whole new set of life rules. We Moms are no longer allowed to do and say things based on how we "feel". Feelings are not some sacred thing to be obeyed at all costs.
Debi

Debi,
This is so true. We can control our actions/reactions to feelings. We can work through those feelings. It is so important to our children that we do.

[Renda]

Deb,

Hello again, this is such a difficult subject and can easily lead to people being offended, as the issues are always so close to the heart.

I wonder though, if we were to ask a large proportion of adult adoptee's what method of adoption they would have chosen, I feel from talking to many others that they would have chosen closed adoption then they could get on with family life , of course though the need to know about roots and contacting birth mothers varies, but in general the need is in the late thirties onwards, roots cannot be denied and adoptees do have a need to know, but are generally happy growing up with just the adopted family alone. I have asked a lot of adoptee's about this , otherwise I would not have put it on here if it was purely my own opinion.

AJ has had it tough on here, and thats a shame, she should be free to air herself and make her own decision for herself and her baby.

renda

[RiverGal]

Renda -- I am not offended at all. As for myself, I KNOW I couldn't have done an open adoption. It was supposed to be semi-open, with pics each year, but the amom had a different agenda.

I do think it is still too early to really understand the longterm results of open adoptions, as the majority of children involved in them are still not grown. And...it is impossible to compare apples and oranges when you have only tasted one. If someone was raised in a closed adoption, how can they possibly decide open adoption is not for them? One can be satisified with their life, but it doesn't mean another way is not also satisfying. But, the entire conversation is kicking a dead horse, in my opinion.

Frankly, I don't see that AJ has had it "bad" here at all. What has been offered are simply different opinions...she may take, or leave, whatever she chooses, as only AJ can make that final choice. No personal attack has been made against her character, nor should it be.

Supporting one another is not always in the form of "atta girls," but that doesn't mean it is not support.

[aj2002]

Everyone needs to just take a step back. I asked for honest opinions, and that is what I have recieved. I have not been offended or hurt (although some of them made me cry... seem to be doing a lot of that lately, lol). So, thank you (I guess) to everyone who has "stood up" for me, but I really don't need it. So, from here on out, how about if anyone who wants to post takes a deep breathe before doing so.... maybe that way the posts won't come out so... I don't know.... "finger pointing-ish"

[79nic]

aj,

Just wanted to say thanks for your pm. If you ever need to talk, the offer stands.

I wanted to mention one other thing... my hubby does not go with me to all the visits. He is not Marie's bfather--we started dating when I was already pregnant, and he stuck by me through eight months of pregnancy, a thickening waistline, a long labor and deliver, rethinking my adoption plan, placement day, crying spells at night, and, now, ambivalent feelings about openness.

So, you'd think that with all that, he'd be able to visit with me, right???

He can't. It's just not in him. He comes about 50% of the time, maybe.

I'm not entirely sure why it's hard for him to visit. He can't exactly articulate it, either. I have theories and some half-reasons (given by him)... that he doesn't like being reminded I have a daughter with someone else... that he has little in common with the aparents... that maybe, he was actually looking forward to raising Marie with me....

None of it rings perfectly true.

All I know is, he can't find it in himself to come to all the visits. But you know what? He comes sometimes. And I believe that this is better than nothing.. no, he's not M's bfather, but considering he's my hubby and I stay involved with M, it's important to me that she knows he doesn't dislike her, that she doesn't feel "abandoned" by him, either. And I think what he does, is enough.

So... if you need to let your fiance go without you sometimes, it's OK.

Sorry, I know I already said that before... just wanted to reiterate. As for how you feel if he does go without you... if you ever want to talk about that, let me know. There were times I chose not to go with my parents, that, even though I chose it, still left me a tiny bit sad... so please don't feel like you don't have a right to be sad at a missed meeting, even if you chose to miss it.

And btw... I'm glad you're talking about this instead of just outright closing it. That in itself proves that you're not "a selfish witch."

Nicole

[RiverGal]

Nicole posted:

And btw... I'm glad you're talking about this instead of just outright closing it. That in itself proves that you're not "a selfish witch."

I agree. You are just a confused, hurting birthmom trying the best way you know how to deal with the emotions. Like Nicole said, it is great that you are doing all you can to work through the turmoil bubbling in your soul. Just keep searching your soul for the right answer...it's there.

-- D

[michellemartin]

AJ just wondering how you're doing. Hope all is going well.

[aj2002]

Hmm.... I don't know that "all is well" is an accurate description, but I guess I'm doing o.k. Thanks everyone for all your input.

[twitchytally]

Although this thread seems to be over l would like to add a few comments, re Renda in particular. I`m also in the uk, where open adoptions are wrote about and spoken of by those in authority, l and my own family were told of this by social workers, and led to believe it was a choice within the uk system, only when it all became legal did it turn into a closed adoption, leaving the grandparents even more heartbroken then they already were at their much loved grandaughter going for adoption, initially being told they could see her four times a year, now not at all, one pic a year, both being 8oyrs its unlikely they will see her again, having regularly cared for her for two and a half years. I later heard social workers and legals talk of the confusion to children of open adoptions, which l would question, believing that children can accept they have a bmum who loves and visits them, be it they were unable to bring them up, and their main carer is an amum who loves them and will bring them up. I wonder how grown adoptees can say they prefer a closed adoption, when they never had an open one, but if they grow up happy and well balanced in a closed one, thats fine, even when the bmums suffer,
but it seems to me that their are a lot of adoptees, simular for children who grow up without their dads, who do look them up, often going to great lengths, and suffering a lot of stress over a long period of time to find their birth parents-families. Perhaps the uk is a little influenced by a class system, and the us is more advanced, liberal, and wiser, in seeing the importance of a childnot only knowing of its bmum-family, but having some contact, but their main allegiance is going to be to their main carer their amum, which can be painful for bparent, and they may need time to come to terms and heal, but hopefully they will keep contact over the years, the same for divorced dads, in most cases this is of benefit to a child, so that they will not be as likely to feel rejected or abandoned, that they were and always will be loved by their bfamily.
I`m sorry if this offends or upsets anyone, as it seems we all have different opinions, the above is mine, added to that l think closed adoptions are inhumane.

[gretaP]

i feel exactly the same way- i haven't been able to take the amount of contact the adoptive parents want. i've pretty much cut off all contact. it kills me too that he is happy without me- that he has grown up with out me- that i don't know him- that the adoptive mom gets to cuddle with him and i don't- it's all shoved in your face when you see pictures, videos or get phone calls. i hope i can get past this one day and have a relationship with him. but now contact is SO SO very painful.

[Jackiejdajda]

gretaP

I believe your feelings are real and genuine.. I do not think there is a thing wrong with respecting them..

How do you (in your heart of hearts) think you should handle this? Maybe doing some journalling may help..

Jackie

[gretaP]

Originally posted by numbr1dbcksfan
Actually I think it is more like this:

Self-preservation (Self`-pres`er*va"tion) (?), n.

The preservation of one's self from destruction or injury.

So what you are trying to say is that it is selfish to save yourself from going under? The difference is that adoptive parents did not carry a child and then lose that child. It is night and day!

i couldn't agree with this more. it's not just like "oh it kind of hurts" - it's pain that runs so deep it could possibly destroy us- and we need to preserve ourselves. everything we did previously was for the child- if we had wanted to be selfish we would have kept the child. but instead we sever the natural bond between mother and child in the child's best interest. i've never doubted that this was best for the child.

but i'm just starting to realize what it has done to me. my soul is completely broken. a mother who can't mother. the thing i want most- so far away, so unatainable...

how dare anyone say this is selfishness. everything i did i did for him. but it has close to ruined me...

if i'm not supposed to try to save myself what am i supposed to do?

[gretaP]

jackie-

i don't know. that's why i'm here. i spent my whole pregnancy being a stoic warrior. i spent the last 5 years ignoring the pain, chanting the proud mantra "i did the right thing- the best thing for him." and finally the truth of my own suffering is coming out. and i don't know where to turn, how to deal...how i can possibly turn this into something healthy and positive.

i need to know how other women have done it.

[Jackiejdajda]

gretaP wrote..i spent the last 5 years ignoring the pain, chanting the proud mantra "i did the right thing- the best thing for him."

I call that the hero role.. Hero's can't cry.. Hero's can't get angry.. Real angry.

I think that if one works at the healing one can heal..
Doing the darn grief work.. Going into it and then out the other side..

In the Healing Wall section some of us are doing the Artist Way by Julia Cameron..
she writes on page 54..

"..........,I see that I have written a good deal about pain. This is no coincidence. It may be different for others, but pain is what it took to teach me to pay attention. In times of pain, when the future is too terrifying to contemplate and the past too painful to remember, I have learned to pay attention to right now.. "

me.... I underlined that last line.. Recently my husband went through some hard medical stuff.. My dad has had another mini stroke..
I am staying in the moment big time.. It really helps.. I tell myself that all I got to do is be in right now.. and that hard stuff will pass..
And I also tell myself that I can not control anything..



Jackie