[DanaofReno]

I become so angry when I read something posted that makes it sound as if ALL birthmothers were wretches.

At the time in the 50's & 60's there was little if anything known about the emotional and physical pressure put on unwed mothers, only recently, the last 15 years or so, has society begun to think that maybe we have had major issues.

I find it interesting that the adoptees who suffer so much hostility towards their "birth" mothers/fathers are the ones who also had adoptive parents who made the circumstances seem not what they were.

How dare an adoptive parent lie and deceive a child. How dare they assume they "know" everything about the mother and the circumstances. Did they ask? Did they seek the truth? Or, were they a part of the collusion set up to take the babies away, never offering alternatives?

For most of us, we have suffered silently. Our lives were forever changed because of the taking of our babies. We did nothing but get pregnant. We were not, nor are we slime. Many of us have deep spiritual beliefs that have gotten us through the worst parts of our lives...seeking our child.

Until any of you have walked in our shoes, do not judge us.

By the way. Not only am I a "birth"mother, but I married a man who was adopted and we adoted a son. So, I have been on several sides of this issue.
Dana

[BrandyHagz]

I don’t think its fair to give a blanket description of any group of people. Not all birthmothers fit into the same mold.

Granted, there are birthmothers who suffer daily with the choice they made or were forced to make so many years ago…there are also birthmothers that couldn’t hand the baby over fast enough.

It’s hard to post in an open forum like this, because not every single case is the same. I to am a birthmother, an adoptee, and a soon to be adoptive mother. I am not the same birthmother that my birthmother is, nor is my daughter the same adoptee that I am. Every case, every person, is different.

I can understand feeling anger. I feel anger towards my birthmother because of the things she has done and said to me over the course of many years. It has nothing to do with my adoptive parents…they never told me the tale of the young, unmarried birthmother that had no other option. My adoptive mother was brutally honest about my origins.

I think the most important thing to remember when talking with adoptees, birthmothers and adoptive parents, is that everyone is different. I post in almost every post that I make, that my opinions are based on my own experiences as a reunited, rejected, abused and neglected adoptee, and a birthmother in an open adoption.

I commend you for speaking you mind…but keep in mind…even in the 60’s, there were birthmothers that just couldn’t be bothered with offspring, and couldn’t get rid of the child fast enough. We’ll never hear from them, because they don’t care enough to come here. I think the hate and anger you hear from adoptees is because they’re faced birthmothers like this.

It’s hard for me to fathom being a birthmother like that. That’s what makes it so unreal for me. But at the same time…I know there are women (and men, we cant forget about the birthfathers) out there that are like this.

I can’t imagine what life would have been like for me, as a birthmother, in the 60’s. I am so fortunate to have an open adoption, with a wonderful little girl who has wonderful parents.

And, like I say in most all of my posts, I am posting based on my own experiences as a reunited and rejected adoptee. My opinions aren’t shared by everyone, nor are my experiences. There are adoptees that post on this board pretty regularly that had wonderful lives growing up, and have wonderful birthparents that they have reunited with. Unfortunately, I am not one of them…but I also deserve to have my opinion heard.

Dana,

I think most people on these boards do not believe at all that all bmoms are bad! That is as bad as saying that all aprents are bad and all adoptees are bad. Brandy is right...there are so many situations out there that run the gamut from uplifting to totally horrendus. Brandy situation has been awful as an adoptee and a birth daughter but she does refrain from saying that any one group is BAD! I have met many loving, insightful birthmoms on these boards and I am sure that there are many more out in this big world. I think I have seen more general put downs on these forums regarding aparents then anything else. I have seen generalized put downs on adoptees as well "whiners, wounded, in denial, selfish and rude" I have heard many stories about loving aparents that truly care about and honor there childrens staus as an adoptee and I have heard the opposite. I have seen people lash out with anger ,fustration, sarcasm, only to try have people accept there opinions as the "truth" and everyone else is less knowing or ignorant if they don't agree. Its crazy! All of us are looking for something...acceptance,healing whatever.We all need to do it from within, we can't expect someone else to do that for us. Adoptees, if looking for mom and a mommy relationship usually can't have it...its to late...aparents that want the child to heal your losses of infertility, or the birthmom that wants an adult child to heal the pain of relinqinshment...it can't happen that way...its to late! Whats done is done...thats a fact. We need to all learn to let go of the blaming, on all sides then you can start to heal. Most of us are not evil, but man to hear us talk to each other one would think we were all nasty!

It had nothing to do with me personally that my birthmom couldn't keep me...it wasn't because she was bad...my aparents didn't steal me and taught me nothing but respect for my birhtmom...

After finding out circumstances of my birth I could have been angry....said nasty things to birthmom..could have blamed extended family for not taking me....HOW wrong is that!! She was unable to parent...she accepted that, felt a loss because I was her only daughter, but knew she could't parent me...she barely had her own life together.

Back in the dark ages attitudes WERE different and thing happened because of those attitudes...its just the way it was....good or bad...


Dana, I hope thing get better with your daughter, I hope her parents can see the harm they are doing to her...they are being decietful and not letting her honor her birth family. Because as an adoptee I can tell you thats all I want from all my "parentage"is to validate the many sides of who I am and where I came from, that includes honering birthfamily and "growing up" family and attempting to find mutual respect along the way.

Donna

[Decision]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, we really need to be aware that it is just that an opinion. I hear loud and clear what you say, but I also know that combating, or debating anothers opinion will get you no where.
Since recovering my memories of the loss of my son I have done and am doing extensive research on adoption, mostly the "Bword" mothers side.
I too am totally confused at some of the posting here, I have come to know MANY of those mothers that people insist could not tolerate being a mother. Not one of them truly exists as they are portrayed. ANY woman who has a child grow in her shares an inexplicable bond with that child, even though in the moment the child was "unwanted". The fact is they are always wanted. The woman who insists that she does not want anything to do with the child is infact in denial. I know that initself causes contraversy. EVERY mother has the child with her for the rest of her life. Most of these women have mental health issues, addiction...what have you going on at that paticular time in their lives. The fact is the support of society, parental figures the government is not there for these women. We hear horror stories of women abandoning their babies in dumpsters, most peoples first reaction is what a bad woman. Why is that? It is a sorry state when a mother is forced to abandon her child, NO mother truly wants to do this,
It is an arguement that is continued over generations that originated at the Christian community believing they were looking out for the best interest of the First Nations people, when they stole the First Nations children and put them in Residental Facilities, It started at Slavery in the 1800's. It started on the Orphan Train, again by knoweledgeable Christians doing what they believed to be in the best interest of the child. You had orphanages filled to the brim with children with no true parent to guide them, they themselves procreating generations of children that went on to parent without the guidence, with no knowledge of how to parent themselves.
Society shudders at the drug addicts on the corner...do you truly believe that they woke up one day and decided hey I want to do drugs? We have women in the streets having child after child, only to have them taken away because of neglect. Why does she then continue to get pregnant? Because of the loss of the first child, why does she not clean up to get these children back....Once bitten twice shy. She believes she is not good enough, because Society told her so. So were do we start? Education and Support of those who society believes are better off dead. We now have safe baby drop off's.... how about more advertisment that reflects were these women can get support. We see on every dumpster the safe baby drop off locations, why not place a support network phone number instead?
Just because some of us know were to find help does not mean everyone does. Support for women is in general lacking.
To every child that were told or believes they were unwanted I will stand by and say that is not the truth. Even for the mothers that are eventually found and are so terrified of rejection, of not living up to the expectations of their children that they back out crying they got on with their lives...They didnt, you still reside in her heart no matter what.
To the child who suffered unnessisary abuse at the hands of the mother, they are sorry they caused you pain, but be sorrier for her for she lacked the parenting skills.
I know these women who state that they could care less about their children...that is their own defense their insecurities, its just to bad that they dont have the support or power to believe that they to can be loved and love themselves
Hugs
Melissa

[Sharon]

"I become so angry when I read something posted that makes it sound as if ALL birthmothers were wretches." DanaOfReno
The more time I spend on these boards, the more I realize that blanket descriptions just don't apply. There are good people and bad on all sides of the triad.
On a slightly different note, it is interesting to me that I've never personally met another birthmother (at least not that I'm aware of). I've probably known several dozen adoptees in my lifetime, and an equal number of adoptive parents; strange that I've never met a birthmother. I know they're out there... behind every adoptive family, there is a birthmother. There are as many bmoms in this world as there are adoptees. Yet the only bmoms I've met have been my on-line friends.
In my "real life", I almost never tell people that I've relinquished a child. I can only assume that many of the women I've met in my life have done the same, and like me, they don't choose to disclose this information to very many people.
I don't think many people on this forum think badly of bmoms in general, although some probably do. However, this forum is composed of people touched by adoption, people who have at least some first-hand experience with it. The general population is much less educated about adoption, and much more closed-minded about it, IMO. But it's partly our fault as well (bmoms). We keep the issue shrouded in secrecy, so that the general population has no idea that their next-door neighbor, their doctor, their child's teacher, their favorite actress, the woman who cheerfully delivers their mail or writes their favorite column in the newspaper, is in fact a birthmother.
Many people are "coming out of the closet" as adoptees and adoptive parents. We all agree that openness is best. However, where's the openness when it comes to bmoms? Where ARE the bmoms? I've met them on this forum, but not in real life.
I do not think that birthmoms will have the respect of society in general until we speak up and admit that we ARE birthmoms... and a whole lot else, besides.
I am as guilty of "hiding it" as anyone else. I have reached a point in my life where people respect me. They entrust their children to me, to care for and teach. I am afraid I would lose their trust and their respect if they knew I'd relinquished a child. And so I remain silent.
It seems like a vicious circle; we remain silent because society's attitudes make us afraid to speak up. Society's attitudes do not change because we remain silent.
Sorry, it's been a long week. Forgive my rambling.
~ shar

[DanaofReno]

For me, I have never hidden the fact that my first child was adopted. When asked how many children I have I answer honestly. When asked where they are, that too I answer honestly...and the answers are all not happy.

I have a son in prison, but I don't burst out in song about it. He chose to take the low side of life. His dad and I did not raise him nor teach him the values of drugs and the gutter. But, none-the-less that's what he chose. I have another son who had such great potential, talented, happy, well liked. then his dad got wierd, cheated on us with not just one but several women, and became physically abusive towrd our son, and verbally abusive towards me.

I don't brag about these situations, but, if I feel someone is asking out of real interest in me as a person then I tell them.

I have found that the more honest I am the less I have to deal with the callous people in the world.

I guess what started this, is in Sacramento wednesday a baby was found behind a fire department. The first question seems to always be, "what kind of woman/girl would do this" Yet, they could tell by the way the baby girl was dressed that the mother really loved her, and felt no other option. sometimes it is much easier to blame then to understand.

All my life I have been in a career in which listening and understanding, sympathy/empathy is the most important tool.

Perhaps I'm becoming melocholy because Chritsmas is coming and her birthday is just after Christmas, and the day before my dad died in 1995. I wanted so much to have a happy Christmas, learning about my grandchildren, their mother, and her learning about me.

Sadly, it probably will never happen. So, when I read about the "alls", and "everyones" it really irritates me.
Dana

[Nicole28]

I believe that my birthmother must be a selfless, beautiful induvidual for giving me life and the chance to live it to the fullest. It may be an emotional rollercoaster sometimes for an adoptee like myself, but I have never had any feelings of hate towards my birthmother because she gave me up for adoption. I am sure she had valid reasons, whatever they were, and I do feel blessed. I think that the more 'troubled' adoptees sometimes look for someone to blame for all their emotional distress, and their birthmother is an obvious target. However, there are other ways to get through something than by placing blame. All of the birthmothers out there are truly *Angels in Disguise*

[BrandyHagz]

I think that the more 'troubled' adoptees sometimes look for someone to blame for all their emotional distress, and their birthmother is an obvious target. However, there are other ways to get through something than by placing blame. All of the birthmothers out there are truly *Angels in Disguise*

I have a real problem with this statement. My birthmother has openly admitted to me that I am nothing more than an abortion that couldn’t happen because she found out she was pregnant to late.

Does that make me troubled? No, it makes me angry.

I don’t blame anyone for anything that’s happened in my life. She isn’t responsible for my adoptive mothers drunken rages. But neither am I.

Again, there seems to be a problem with using blanket statements…in the end, someone’s feelings get stepped on.

There is nothing I hate worse than reading someone else’s post where they claim *I* am the troubled one, and that my birthmother is an angel for choosing adoption.

Everyone needs to remember that EVERYONE has a different story. We aren’t all here playing the blame game. Not all birthmothers are these angels sent from heaven…some are retched women who could care less about anyone else but herself.

Saying that every adoptee that is angry at their birthmom is troubled and looking for a place to put the blame is outrageous, and I am deeply offended.

Just like the original poster posted, walk a mile in my shoes.

I will continue to post my opinions based on my adoption. I will also continue to defend myself from these blanket statements.

[dl]

Thank you. I had a hard time reading some of these posts also. The first post started out complaining about blanket statements about ALL bmothers and then proceeded to make blanket statements about aparents and adoptees. I get really steamed when it is insinuated that we as babies were "taken". I was in foster care for 13 months before my aparents "took" me!

It is repeatedly stated that bmothers in the 50's AND 60'S had "no choice". Interesting fact is, my bmother placed a son in 1949 ~ the result of an affair, placed me in 1950 ~ child of her husband whom she was separated from and divorced, kept a son in 1953 ~ the result of another affair and raised him as a single mother until she married in 1957 and had two more daughters. Obviously my bmother did have a choice in the 50's. By stating this I am not implying that ALL had a choice, just that it is not true that ALL had no choice.

Agree with you that EVERY situation is different and EVERY person in EVERY situation is also different.

While you and I have had very different adoption experiences and I have been welcomed in an exchange of letters with my bfather, we have similar opinions on the issue of personal choice and responsibility.

Aspenhall posted an excellent article titled "Nature of Nuture: A False Dichotomy". Here's the link if anyone is interested. New angle to the Nature vs Nurture Debate(long post) It discusses the origin of effective behavior. A couple quotes

"Effective behavior is primarily the result of choice. . .In this age of victim talk, that doesn’t set well with some folks. . . They would rather provide a litany of reasons they behave in a certain way than take personal accountability for their actions. . .It reminds me of comedian Flip Wilson’s old line, “The devil made me do it.” Only in real life it’s not funny. . .The excuses many reactive people give for their behavior seem designed, consciously or not, to absolve them of responsibility. It’s as though they really have no choice."

I find it so difficult to understand people that go through life and NEVER feel ANYTHING is their responsibility.

Like BrandyHagz, I am posting based on my own experiences as an adoptee and my own opinions. Yes Brandy, you do deserve to have your opinion heard and I always look forward to reading your most honest posts. Even when I feel pain for what you have been through ~ I'm glad you posted.

[Nicole28]

I'm sorry to hear that your birthmother says that all you are to her is an 'abortion that couldn't happen.' Everyone has a different story, that's true. I shared mine, and you shared yours. None of us has a 'better' story or a 'worse' story - it's just how it turned out for us both. Everything also happens for a reason - you're alive, life may not have been 'a bowl of cherries' but NO ONE has the ideal, perfect life, inclduing myself. You have the right to defend yourself, and you should. But so do I! You're very blessed to have been given life, even if your birthmother wishes you had not been born in the first place. Isn't that enough?

[DanaofReno]

Doesn't anyone read? Is it that hard to actually read what I originally said and understand that I do not like the blanket words to describe anyone or group.

As for the article about behaviors, this is just one opinion. For every study there is an opinion, and each study can be formulated to demonstrate one's views. However, the studies are never totally conclusive, but offer more questions.

To really believe there is only one answer for all behaviors is being rather narrow minded, in my opinion. NOTE: "In my opinion".

But I digress. I wonder if anyone can really be totally objective when reading/hearing another's opinions? Or, because in this arena, we only see the words, and not the faces, it is easier to judge then to be open to other posibilities.

RESPONSIBILITY: Let me see if I get this right. EVERYONE has choices. And although one may be threatened, there is still a choice to make. Well, on the surface it sounds rather simple. But, if one perceives the threat as one in which a life may be indanger it is still a choice? Correct?

But, even children should be held responsibile for the choices they make then? So, as I perceive this, a child, a victim of any type of abuse is to take responsibility even if she/he was too frightened to tell anyone? Or, is it possible, that victims, regardless of act, really are victims, and not responsible for outcomes in which they felt they hod no control? (And victims rarely have control).

There isn't and never will be a perfect person or response or behavior...there are only people trying to make sense out of their lives, and find a way to feel a belonging and a love. Bitterness, and I'm included in this, never helps anyone...it only promotes more bitterness.

Do not judge me...listen to me, and either agree with me, or move on.

Dana

[BrandyHagz]

Originally posted by DanaofReno

At the time in the 50's & 60's there was little if anything known about the emotional and physical pressure put on unwed mothers, only recently, the last 15 years or so, has society begun to think that maybe we have had major issues.

That was the only comment I was responding to. To me, stating that birthmothers of the 50's & 60's were under emotional and physical pressure to place their child is false. Not all birthmothers of this time were under that pressure.

You may have been speaking for yourself, and that’s fine...but in reading that statement, it sounds like you are speaking for all birthmothers of that period...that would be an incorrect blanket statement.

[dl]

DanaofReno: Yes, it is frustrating when people don't read what has been posted. I stated several times in my posts that I was posting my "opinion". I clearly stated to Brandy, "similar opinions on the issue of personal choice and responsibility". I never said there were not other "opinions", obviously there are ~ how boring things would be if we all had the same opinions. I don't feel expressing ones opinion, whether in agreement or a different opinion is judging someone else ~ again, only my opinion.

Yes, the article is only one opinion and as you demonstrated an alternative view can be carried to the extreme in an effort to maintain that no one has any personal responsibility for anything. Whatever happens to us it is always the fault of someone else. Many people share that belief. There have been successful lawsuits based on that premise. For example, it's not the person's fault for burning themselves when they spilled coffee on themselves while driving ~ it's McDonalds fault for making the coffee to hot.

I do find it contradictory that first you post "To really believe there is only one answer for all behaviors is being rather narrow minded, in my opinion" then you post "listen to me, and either agree with me, or move on."

BrandyHagz: I interpreted that post the same way you did.

[aspenhall]

I need to clarify a little on the nature/nurture theory.....Nature/Nurture gives us the platform from which to make our choices.....A victim cannot choose the path of her attacker, only her own. She may find one choice easier than the other because of how she was raised, but the fact is, a choice always exists. People overcome obstacles everyday by making a choice. I also want to clarify that I believe (and scientific studies on the brain support this) that the approximate age of accountability in an average child is 8 yrs old. My mother was a spoiled baby and a neglectful parent, I was raised in an almost entirely negative environment. My father was also spoiled and immature....Does that mean that I am double whammied and due to Both Nature and Nurture, I am blameless if in the future I also neglect and beat my children? NO, because I have a choice on my own actions, I will be held accountable for my own decisions. And based on my platform that Nature/Nurture handed be, I will be judged for my choices as my own. An alcoholic may have a genetic link predisposed to the disease, but ultimately HE CHOSE TO TAKE THE FIRST DRINK. And life may have given him a platform that made that choice the easiest, but he STILL HAD THE CHOICE.

Please come up with a scenario that disproves this theory, I am interested in the challange.

[Shoshana]

nature refers to the contribution to our 'selves' of our biology (both peripheral and central nervous systems) and heredity.

nurture refers to the contribution to our 'selves' of environmental influences (parental, familial, social, economic, educational, etc.)

for intelligence & most personality traits, the contribution of nature is 60% and nurture is 40%. we do not inherit a specific trait per se, or intelligence level, but a range. the environment acts on that range to either push the individual to the upper or lower limits.

it is reasonable (in my opinion) to take a moderate stance on the nature vs. nurture controversy in recognition of the very significant impact both of these have on our 'selves.'

when you speak of making choices or the belief that one has no control over one's experiences or feelings (e.g., something or someone 'caused' me to feel, think, or behave in a particular way), you are referring to the free will vs. determinism debate.

free will states that individuals are capable and even biologically driven (a bit of nature here) to grow, change, mature, and strive for happiness, achievement, and the contribution to society and others. we make rational, conscious choices, and we are aware of the motivations behind our choices.

determinism states that individuals' behavior and personality are determined - or ordained. we are unaware of why we feel the way we do, or why we behave the way we do because we cannot be consciously aware of material in our unconscious, or our instinctual drives dictate our behavior, or because we cannot know what learning contingencies shaped behavior, or because traits (which we inherit) determine behavior.

it is conceptually difficult to reconcile a nature & free will approach. adherence to a strict nature view almost demands adherence to a strong deterministic stance. but believe it or not, one can give more weight to nurture and --still-- be deterministic (i'm thinking of learning theory - classical and operant conditioning).

seems to me that what makes the most sense is to recognize that both nature & nurture are important, and to recognize that while we DO have free will, some of our 'selves' may be determined -- that belief does not absolve personal responsibility.