[Courtney Frey]

All Items Served 24 hours a day.

Cup of Compassion

Honest HotCakes

Moons over Understanding

Little Crepe's filled with Learning

Trust Muffins

We also offer a HUGE variety of syrups and jellies.

As you come here to place your order ... to feed the hunger inside and to enjoy a nice little coffee break with friends ... please remember this ...

We're all hungry. We're all learning. No one knows everything. Trust and honesty take time. Flaming is not allowed, we do not have fire insurance. Do not judge others for what they order. (Didn't your mother tell you to at least TRY it before you said no thank you?) lol Be willing to look at the WHOLE menu at all times, even when you think you're full there's always something more.

I only have a couple of NO WAY'S on this board:

1.) No WAY is anti-adoption flaming allowed. If you have facts that you can back up regarding adoption community, institution of adoption, or adoption in society, you can post them for awareness purposes, but they must be accompanyied by a link or a factual statement that can be proven. Ie; if your adoption agency handled an adoption illegally or in ways that resulted in trauma, this is allowed. If you "heard" about a story from someone in which this happened, make sure you can back it up with facts.

2.) This is a board for DISCUSSION. OPinions are welcome and necessary for learning and growth, but judgement and cruelty will not be tolerated. If you don't agree with someone, write away! But don't put others down or slander them.

3.) No WAY is posting for available babies allowed here. The majority of those who will come for coffee are birthmothers who already have relinquished. This is a learning place ... not a facilitation service. If you want to post for available babies visit: http://www.waitingfamilies.com

So ... order up! Let's get this round table started!

Hmmmm .... those Moons over Understanding look really good today! (And hey, pass that coffee back over my way please!)

Courtney

[Momof2]

Hi Courtney!

I am a Birthmother who has an open adoption with the parents of my 10 year old daughter.

Yesterday, I attended a show that my daughter was in. The day was wonderful, and my daughter was so sweet and beautiful. I was sooo happy that she was experiencing the things I so badly wanted for her when I knew that I was pregnant with her. She has very loving parents that I have a very respectful and open relationship with.

But last night when I came home and my son was down to sleep, I cried for the first time in years. Her parents have invited me to several events. However, I feared attending because I did not want to feel these feelings again.

I felt happiness to see her, but extreme pain that I did not really know my own daughter. I have received several photo's and letters, etc. But have had limited meetings with her (my choice).

She knows she is adopted, knows who I am, but does not know I am her birthmother. It saddens me, but I know in time when she is old enough that we at least will not be complete strangers when we finally reunite as birthmother and daughter.

I came accross this forum, and read your stories and thoughts that you have on the web site. The one titled "no one told me" touched me so deeply. I cried so hard.

I have always come accross as strong in my decision and still believe it was the best decision I could have ever made for her then. But suddenly I feel so sad that (I) couold not provide those things for her. I felt sad when people came up to us, and asked if they (her parents) had a daughter in the show. I wanted to scream WE have a daughter in the show! Yet at the same time could not claim that because of the guilt I have for not being the one who could raise her.

I am not sure if I should not see her anymore, or see her when invited and just deal with my pain silently as I have done for 10 years now. I don't want to scare her parents. I certainly do not want to disrupt any of their lives. And I would NEVER say anything to her. However I am so sad.........

Any advise?

[Courtney Frey]

One of the most painful silent arguments between my younger sister (who is also a birthmother) and I is my having a difficult time allowing her to "pull away" as she has from the open adoption she had. As someone from whom that was basically stolen from, It takes everything I have to not scream at her for not seeing her birth daughter. We come from opposite sides of the "healing fence."

What you're feeling and experiencing is an emotional trigger, brought on by three things.
1.) Your visit with your daughter
2.) Your son
3.) Your having dealt with the relinquishment on your own for so long.

And trust me ... what you're feeling is totally normal. As is your reaction to the feelings you experienced.

1.) I can't do this anymore
2.) Should I just keep hiding it all?

The thing you need to remember, though as hard as it is, is that this is just an emotional reaction. We have these emotional reactions for a reason ... they are our "signs" - telling us that something is wrong inside and we need to deal with some things.
Kind of like our physical reactions - when we touch something hot our skin burns, a "sign" that is telling us to deal with our burning finger quickly.

The tough part about emotional triggers is that very rarely are we just dealing with one thing. Your letter tells me that you're aware of this ... as you write, "because of the guilt I have for not being the one who could raise her." And even though you also wrote that you still believe you made the best choice you could at that time ... there is a hint in there that tells me, as you watched your son sleep that maybe you're wondering and thinking ... "Maybe I could have done it ...." There's some guilt there, and a lot of emotions and issues that you haven't had the opportunity to work through.

What I told my sister is what I'll tell you ...

It's not the visits that are the issue really ... it's how those visits make you feel - the emotional triggers that you're dealing with afterwards. You can't deal with the emotions by cutting off the visits ... the emotions will still exist except now you've cut your ties with your child. Once you've cut off the visits - then you're faced with denial ... which could go on for years. Since you don't have to "see" your daughter face to face it's much easier to deny the feelings. But sooner or later ... you won't be able to escape them and you'll have more than just yourself to own up to then, you'll have your daughter to face as she wonders ... why did you stop seeing me?

My only advice to you is to really get real about the emotional issues that these visits are bringing up ... and to work through them. Get into a support group or start counselling for a little while. There's absolutely nothign wrong with the feelings you're having - every birthmother experiences them .... you're not alone.

Maybe it would help to get into a group with others like you who are experiencing the same things .... get yourself some validation for what yo'ure going through hon. It's not easy.

If not for the visits or even for your birthdaughter ... but for your son. It's amazing what they pick up on.

I know some of this may not have been what you wanted to hear, but I've watched my sister go through this very thing for eleven years ... and I've seen how denial can just eat you up, steal your daughter away, and ruin so much good that is really possible. You've made it this far girl ... you're stronger now ... you can keep on going ... I promise - the goods get better.

Courtney

[Momof2]

Dear Courtney:

You are so right about the feelings I have. The biggest emotion I felt last night was "Why didn't I do this for my daughter."

Although I know the reasons, the guilt is there.

I use to attend group sessions with birth mothers when my daughter was born. At 18 I looked at the adoptive parents as "saints" and thought they were much better than I. After my daughter was born they wanted me to stop the counseling. They were paying for all my medical and I believe counseling. I also wanted to prove to them that I was not the stereo-typical girl with an unplanned pregnancy.

They convinced me that I was healed and that my decision and relationship with them was soooo close and wonderful.

While I do value the respectful relationship we have, and honestly hope I am not coming off as resentful to them by any means, I feel that I should have been allowed to grieve as I needed. Not as my family or adoptive family wanted me to.

Reading your throughts and experiences make me realize that my feelings are not mine alone, and are perfectly normal. Thank you so much for helping me come out with my denial that I have been living with for 10 years now.

I have been fighting the stereo-typical opinions of complete ignorance from people who have no idea what it feels like to be a birth mother for so long. You have put into words the feelings I have been feeling for sooo long.

I started counseling about a month ago (once again) to deal with many of the challanges I have been facing. This time no one but ME can decide when I am healed and when I need to stop my healing. That in itself makes me feel good

I agree that with counseling I can gain the strength to over come my fears, and be able to have a healthy, happy relationship with my daughter as well as my son

Thank you so much for your response to my post, and for sharing your own similar experiences!

[Courtney Frey]

I used to think that something was wrong with me when, for several years every time I mentioned anything about my birthson I heard this response, "Well, he's happy and loved and in a good place and that's what matters most." It was as if everyone around me NEEDED ME to move on ... my being at all emotional or talkative about the "Subject" was uncomfortable for them.

You're so right when you stand up for yourself and honor and respect yourself enough to admit that only YOU can heal, know when, and how to do it. You and I both know though, even after ten years this isn't something that's so easy to know, much less do. After all - we were in a "compromisable" position, and we did really want what's best ... so we listened and heeded the kind and wise words of those who "knew best" and stepped trustworthy into their gentle advice and care. We also, as you SO well put (so MANY of us feel this way!), "I wanted to prove to them ....." Oh my if you only knew how many of us felt this way.

I think my "real" healing journey started when I finally realized how angry I was at everyone who had, at one point in time or another, either intentionally or unintentionally, manipulated me in some form or another, to remain in denial. Once I came to terms with others lack of ability to admit what had happened and to validate the loss that took place ... I had to face my OWN inability in admitting what had happened and facing and owning up to the loss myself. Letting go of all the un-met expectations I was still clinging to, those I had for my parents and family members and even friends who at one point or another failed me, emotionally and physically ... and forgiving them. Understanding that NO ONE but me knew the enormous grief, no one but me could grieve the way that needed to be done, and no one but me could begin to heal from it all.

I hungered for validation ... someone who could put their arms around me and simply validate the loss, the life of my child, someone who would build me up - empower me - someone who wouldn't shy away from the issues, someone with whom I could simply sit and just talk to about how precious my child was and how great the loss I lived with was ... but, after a very long ten years I slowly began to realize .... that person would have to be me.

Birthmother healing has a beginning .... but the myth about healing is that it has an end. We spend the rest of our lives going through this journey of birthparent-hood ... we grow stronger, it hurts less, we gain wisdom to head off the emotional ruts and/or to absorb them in healthier ways than the year before. We recover, year after year, and wounds are healed, yes, but healing - real healing - takes a lifetime. Because we are human .... and perfection doesn't exist for us.

So don't be hard on yourself when, in several years, you find that the tears fall just as hard, out of the blue, and you're croutched in a corner in your sons room, once again, watching him sleeping, and the loss and the grief crawls upon you like the gentle smell of your newborn daughter .... even after ten, or fifteen, or even twenty years ... the loss exists. But we learn, when to allow ourselves those sad moments of acknolwedgement, "Yes, I'm a birthmother .... yes, I miss my child." And we also know when to stick out our chins, toughen up, and force ourselves to be strong.

You're headed the right direction girl ... keep on going. Stay true to yourself and your needs, and know that sorrow isn't a sign of weakness - it's a sign that you're honoring your child, honoring yourself, and admitting that the sacrifice you made still counts for something.

There are thousands of us out here who are walking with you. Keep your head up, there are many who will catch the tears.

My love,
Courtney

[Momof2]

I can't tell you how much it has helped me to chat with someone who knows how I feel.

Someone who doesn't shy away or feel shame when they hear my story. Someone who doesn't offer rediculous theories or twists to what people mistakening think. It is nice not to be judged as a person who didn't care about my first born child.

When I hear from people in the past, or my daughters parents, they have no idea how much it hurts me when they say "Wow, you haven't changed a bit in 10 years". I know they are referring to my physical appearance because I still appear very young looking, however it shatters what I have worked so hard on for the past 10 years of my life. I have worked so hard to be able to support my son that I have. And to be able to give him the life I could not provide for my daughter. He will NEVER replace her, but I want him to be happy and healthy, too.

I have lived through Ovarian cancer and the relived senario of a man walking out on me while pregnant for the second time in my life. And people wonder why I shy away from relationships. Then they make snide comments like "So, are you going to have any more kids?" Insinuating that it makes me happy to have a child alone. I have heard so many mean and rediculous comments, yet instead of getting mad, I felt this need to explain it to them in a loving mannor. I don't feel like I need to do this any more. Why are the adoptive parents getting a blessing, but the birthparents viewed as either poor or doing something so wonderful for the people we hardly know. I did this for my daughter. For HER to have the life I thought she deserved to have that I could not. Not for me, not for them, not for anyone but for her.

It is so nice to hear true comforting, and caring by someone who understands my feelings. Someone who does not say, "How can you give up one, but keep the next." Like we just decided that I want one, but not the other. It is so much more complicated than that as you know.

Thank you so much, I have truely enjoyed "meeting" you, Courtney!

[Courtney Frey]

In my book, "One Birthmothers Emotional Truth," I write about "my other children," and the different choices that were made, and possibly why I made them. You'll get NO judgement from me girl ... I Promise!

I relinquished Jonothan when I was 14 and before my nineteenth birthday I became a single mother to my oldest daughter, Amanda. I was WORSE off when I gave birth to Amanda than when I had Jonothan ... by far.

At eighteen I'd been a run a way for about two years, lived in a drug house, had no car, no job, and no money. I was SO in love with her father, who'd gone away to boot camp for the Air Force and believed that when he came home .. he'd marry me. I took my daughter out of the hospital, into a cab, and was taken to the home of a women from a local church who had offered to let me stay in a room in her house.

And though my family NEVEr once asked, why I relinquished Jonothan and kept Amanda ... they made it very clear by staying away from me that I would pay the price. People do ask me however, why I gave up one and just three years later became a single teenage mother. Over the last 13 years I've realized that there are reasons and issues that are intertwined with what I did and why. Not only that ... but that I wasn't the only one.

In my own "research" on-line and of the birthmothers that I've known over the years - 2 out of every 5 birthmothers go on to have a second child within 5 years of relinquishing. And very rarely in better circumstances than what they were in at the time of relinquishement.

I lead bethany christian's support group and out of the 16 birthmothers that belong - three of them have another child, one of them is pregnant again, and I know of two of them who have had abortions since the relinquishment.

That's almost 1/2 the group. It just happens that that 1/2 of the group are those birthmothers who are more than 2 years out of relinquishment. The other 1/2 are within the first 2 years of relinquishment. IN fact, tonight at group this is what we'll be discussing.

I believe that very little of it has to do with "replacing" our loss. I do think that it has somewhat, subconsciously, to do with it, but even more than that there are root issues that are influencing this in many birthmothers. Another little known fact is that, again just from my own research, one in every three birthmothers have suffered some form of abuse in their pasts, whether physical, verbal, or sexual. Now, I don't know if these stats reflect society or women in general (I know a LOT of women are abused at young ages), but just based on birthmothers - this evidence can't go over-looked. There's something wrong.

What I've realized in my own healing through relinquishment is that I had so many other issues in my life that I'd never worked through that I couldn't possibly begin to work through the relinquishment itself. There was far too much tied into the emotion of it - how I dealt with loss and grief - my reaction to the pregnancy and the needs that I had as an individual - how I got those needs met - how I was influenced, etc. What I realized only about three years ago was that I was dealing with my relinquishment almost exactly like I'd dealt with the sexual abuse I'd suffered growing up ... I punished myself, remained a victim, felt ugly and dirty, and reacted by wanting to make my family proud of me - to gain "good girl" status - to be accepted. Hence, my justification of what I'd done, and my denial of the pain so that others would be "proud" of me for moving on. But, in reality, I was just continuing to be a victim. Doing what others wanted me to do so that they would love me and be proud of me, keeping the pain inside, keeping it all secret, but slowly and surely dying inside from the lonliness and anger of it all.

For a long time I couldn't understand it ... after all ... I'd done the "right" thing right? Why then, all the pain? Why then, was it never discussed? Why then did it feel so wrong? Why then, did I always feel this cloud of shame around me, as if everyone in my life was waiting for me to "put it behind me" and move on to become successful despite, "My earlier rebellion."

I had to go back, way back, and get to the roots of why I had what I call, "Performance Syndrome." Doing what I did in life, making the choices I made to meet what I assumed were the demands and expectations of others in my life. Of course, there was a time when I did do the opposite of that ... when the weight of "performing" got so great I went the other direction and told myself, "I'll never be good enough ... screw them! I'll show them!" And that's when I fell into the deep dark hole of "rebellion" (as my grandparents call it. lol) and ran away from home, dropped out of school, did drugs, drank, and almost completely and totally ruined myself. What I ddin't realize, was when I thought I was "showing them" I was really just punishing myself. I felt so low, so disgusting, so un-worthy, and so un-loved, that I gave up on myself and lived the way I thought I deserved. Alone.

Three years ago I wanted one thing more than anything. I wanted to get "me" back. I wanted to know myself. I wanted healing more than I'd ever wanted it before. So I started with the roots. Where it all began in my life. I had to go all the way back, hoping and praying that the past would show me the truth of how I'd become the person I was. I wanted to know the answers as to why I relinquished, and then why I became a single mother so soon afterwards. Why I felt so abandoned, so un-loved, and so destructive, emotionally.

In my book I write about this time, describing it like cleaning house. Your a full time mommy so you know ... cleaning house can be totally overwhelming. Toys, diapers, dishes, clothes, etc, and before you know it it's so much that you don't even want to do it because you don't know where to start! That's how the beginning of my healing felt. Like there were so many rooms that were overwhelmingly messy, layers upon layers, and I just had no idea where to start - or if my "cleaning" would even make any difference at all.

The truth about birthmother healing is that it DOES NOT start with the relinquishment. It doesn't even start with the pregnancy. It starts way back ... when you were set up to later find yourself in the relationship that led to the pregnancy. It begins at the roots ... what were we looking for, what were our needs, and why we found ourselves, so young and so attached in a relationship that should have just been "for fun" at our age? Where did our need for love and attention come from? What needs did we have that were not getting met by those who were supposed to be meeting them?


I was listening to an audio tape in my friends car when we made a long drive to Denver - it was called, "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil (from oprah) and the first thing he said on the tape was, "If you bought this tape and are listening to it without your significant other, hoping that you'll find some wisdom to change that person ... take it out and throw it away .. you're not ready for it. If you're ready to believe that only YOU are responsable for the way your life is, how you feel, and the eventual outcome of any joy and happiness in your life - then stay tuned."

It made me think about my healing journey as a birthmother, and how true that statement is. My healing could NOT be contingent on my son, his adoptive parents, my family, or anyone else in my life - what they'd done, what they are currently doing, etc, it had to be and only be 100% about me. I had to take responsability for it all and in taking that responsability, I had to be the one to make the decision to "rescue" myself from the emotional lock and key I'd been under for so long.

There will always be those who judge, those who are ignorant of the issues, and those who make snide comments either intentionally or unintentionally ... being a birthmother is not easy for there are very few who can comprehend what we've done. But what I've discovered is that there is great power in validation, not to others, but within. When you can validate your decision, who you are because of it, and even the grief and pain of it ... you'll discover a great strength within. That same strength will show within you ... others will begin to see it, and even be drawn to it ... and before you know it - the only justification you'll ever have to do won't be to others ... the justification of who you are and the choices you made will be inside the glory of your own personal, emotional, success.


Twelve years ago in my hospital room with my infant son in my arms I prayed to God that what I was about to do would NEVER be in vain. I've spent all these years fighting for that ... for purpose in and because of it. Find YOUR strength, YOUR motivation, and fight for it.

Only you can do it. But the influence of that has the power to change those around you like never before. I promise.

[Momof2]

I see my self in so much of what you have described.

After the reliquinshment of my daughter, I myself went through a destructive time. It wasn't until 7 years later when I found out I was pregnant with my son that things turned around for me.

I, as well was committed to a time of heavy drinking and drug use. I wanted to numb the pain and hurt that I was feeling. I got into a relationship with someone I thought I loved so much to later realize that I love EVERYONE when I drink alot, lol.

When I had my son, I went through a complete change and vowed to be the best mother I possibly could. I stopped partying and started a life of complete reversal. When my son was five months old I met someone who wanted a family desperately. After only 3 months of dating and people telling me I shouldn't be a sinlge mother, and that I "needed to have a man in my life" we married. That lasted a whopping 6 months. Getting out of that relationship was the BEST move ever!

I went on to supporting my son alone. I developed a friendship with my son's father and things were good. But I was still extremely lonely. At that time I was punishing my self basically, yet thinking I was doing this GREAT thing for my son by not going out, and being with him constantly unless I was at work or he was visiting his father.

Once again I hit bottom. My relationship with his father underwent another change. He finally found a girlfriend that he really likes, and once again, my son and I were put on his back burner of importance. No more holidays with our son because girlfriend was too jealous. There I am once again to pick up the pieces for my son and explain why daddy doesn't want to be around as much.

That was only 6 months ago, but that is when I hit bottom and realized that for years now I have been living a life that everyone else wants for me.

My father who views me as a 5 year old still in need of his constant guidance and support was driving me insane with his views and his ideas of what I should be doing with my life. It was him encouraging me to give my daughter away, and it was him who was trying to tell me my life would be "simpler" without being a mother to my son that I have raised for 3 years.

I had a major anxiety attack. After being perscribed depression pills, sleeping pills, and Xanax for the attacks, I decided OK, once again, drugs are NOT the answer. I began counseling a month and a half ago.

I am dedicated to Me and finding out who I am. What do I want to do with my self and with my son.

I decided to get a dog 4 weeks ago. I caught major greif for that from family, friends, and even nosey neighbors. People asking me why I want to add "more work to my already hard life". I feel like saying "I see you have become MORE ignorant". What do people care what I do with my life for? I would NEVER comment negatively to someone about thier life. Why do people feel the need to judge or comment on mine?

I wish I had good come backs to these and other rude comments people make to me.

I recently bought a book called "stand up for your life." by Cheryl Richardson. It has helped me alot to say "no" to people who want to completely control me.

I agree that it is a good idea to come into contact with more birthmothers. I do not want to let go of my daughter's memory and want to hold her close in my heart once again.

Last night my son and I went through baby pictures and asked me who the little girl (my daughter) was. I am not sure when to tell him that is his sister. I want them to meet soon. But I do not want him to say anything to her just yet.

I, like you, have experienced abuse in my past, as well as abandonment issues from my mother. It seems Mom always passed her kids to someone else when things got tough. Including my little brother who she gave up for adoption to my aunt. I was angry at her for years for that. I am trying to fogive my own mother for not being there for me as a child as well.

So now I am trying to come to terms with all my hurt anger, fear and lonliness. Talking helps.....

Instead of being mad when my son paints the dog blue, green and pink, I take out the camera, and laugh. So the dishes can be done later, I have a son and dog that need a mom to join in on the fun.....boy are they going to be surprised when I paint THEM!

[Courtney Frey]

Hi Momof2!

I'm so sorry that I haven't responded to your post! I tell you, navigating these boards and GETTING IN to them has proven a great challenge! Patience, patience Courtney. lol

This morning is the first morning I've been able to open this thread! Yeah!!!!

You Wrote: "I, like you, have experienced abuse in my past, as well as abandonment issues from my mother. I am trying to fogive my own mother for not being there for me as a child as well."

You also Wrote: " My father who views me as a 5 year old still in need of his constant guidance and support was driving me insane with his views and his ideas of what I should be doing with my life."

You know, what I've discovered for myself is that I've spent over half my young life trying to FILL IN THE GAPS for my parents! Without realizing it - I was trying to make it "better" for them. With my father - who is very much like yours - I did everything I could to make him proud of me. If I did something good enough, or right enough - maybe then he would be happy.

Two years ago in my own therapy my counselor said to me, "Since when was it your job to 1.) make your parents happy and 2.) fix their problems?" I realized ... my parents had raised me (well, had NOT raised me that is) based on and because of their own issues. My therapist said, "You won't ever get love from your parent's issues - so stop trying to feed them."

I remember the FIRST time I had the courage to respond to my father's "advice" on my life. I told him on the phone, "Dad, that's great advice, but you know this is something I have to figure out on my own." He got upset of course and said, "So I can assume that you think you know it all at 25? How nice for you." LOL But that was the beginning of "the change" in our relationship. It's taken two years but now when I talk to my father he doesn't give me his "lectures" anymore - he actually listens. (Not sure he likes what he hears but oh well!)

You made the BEST point in your post and I just want to remind you of your own wisdom. You wrote that when your son paints the dog blue - you laugh. Remember that with YOUR relationships with your father and mother too!

Life is too short to NOT paint our dogs blue - and if you just keep doing it ... maybe, just maybe one day your parents will get a good laugh out of it as well.

When I was about six or seven years old I was really struggling with my "emotional instability" (I'm a diagonosed bi-polar) I remember sitting outside our house pouting when my father came out and got angry at me. I remember looking up at him with tears streaming down my face and I cried out, "Why does everyone else say the sky is blue when I can only see purple?" My father's response to that was to laugh at me and tell me, "Your being dramatic Courtney." (at a young age I was way over my intellect unfortunantly)

That stayed with me all through my years and still does. But, just this year at my youngest sister's graduation when I gave a speech to the family and to my sister - my father came up to me afterwards with tears in his eyes and said this to me, "One of the things I'm most grateful for in my life as a father is that my oldest daughter has the courage to continue painting the sky purple."

So ... you never know what it is about YOU that your parents love and need and take pride in until you embrace it within your own self and live un-afraid of what they may think.

What a journey we live ...

Courtney

[ElderBerry]

Courtney and Momof2, it is so wonderful reading your conversation.

The RELIEF of finding this forum, you just CANNOT IMAGINE HOW IT MAKES ME FEEL. I don't know why I haven't found this forum before. I have looked and looked for years for birthmother support forums, on the web, but all I've ever been able to find is ones that just attack me when I ask for anyone else who has had any thing at all similar to my own experience.

And wowee!! Here's Courtney who's diagnosed bipolar -- like I am!

Actually, I didn't get my dx until I was 54 years old. But I knew all my life there was something wrong. For those, including MomOf2, who don't know much about bipolar disorder, it is also called manic depression. There are lots of different kinds of it. My kind is rapid cycling called cyclothymia. Cyclothymia, or cycolthymic disorder is supposedly a "milder form" of bipolar disorder, and that's true except that nothing about bipolar disorder is mild. I have never been psychotic (not thought I was God or Jesus, for example), and haven't had a suicide attempt.

But I did THINK ABOUT SUICIDE and wish I were dead, from the time I was a young child. Now, I generally don't think of suicide. Except when my medication needs adjusting.

Like you, MomOf2, my dad treated me like I was 5 years old. He would be called a "domineering parent," and my mother was/is a cold person who has no emotion. Both my parents lost their same-sex parent when they were young, in automobile accidents. Daddy's dad was hit by a truck when Daddy was only 10; Mother's mother was killed in a car wreck when Mother was 17.

I was physically and emotionally abused by my parents, and emotionally and financially abused by the man who fathered my daughter. Sexually, too,if you consider that he was a "user" and a mere don juan. He didn't force or rape me, though. I only knew him about a month.

I was seeking love, and truly, can find that in friends and for that I am very grateful. But in intimate relationships, so far, love has not been part of my experience.

I knew I could not raise my daughter; I knew "we would drive each other insane." I knew I would end up hitting her, that I had no way to understand how to raise a child; that I wanted to be kind and loving, but that -- like my own mother -- I had no feeling for a child. I did, however, have feeling for her when I held her on two occasions after she was born. But I knew I could not take care of her. I knew I could not take care of myself!

I knew I did not have the stamina to even make a living for myself. At the time she was conceived, I was 21 years old, teaching public school. I had a relatively easy 2nd grade class, which I could not handle. When I got home from school each night, I cooked a simple dinner, feel into bed sobbing and went to sleep at 6:30 p.m. I slept all weekend long. This has pretty much been my pattern whenever I have tried to work full time. I have never been able towork full time in my life.

So when I married (divorced 3x from abusive men) I never had kids, and got my tubes tied at age 36.

I have so wanted to talk to other birthmothers who admit to having had had real problems. Courtney, the statistics you cite are amazing, and I am not surprised. So how is it that the other birthmother sites are so hostile? Why is acknowledging the truth about birth mothers' issues taboo?

Oh, and by the way -- I keep seeing the demands of adoptees to birthmothers -- stuff like,"Okay keep your rights to not meet us,but let us have the facts about ourselves!" Well, I have almost no facts! I know almost nothing about the paternal family; and next to nothing about the history of my own family,either. Our family, like virtually every dysfunctional family, is one of SECRETS. I only found out a year ago, that my paternal grandmother was hospitalized with "nervous exhaustion" (depression). My own dad was long gone by then -- he died at 86, and Mother knows little about it. My nephew has depression and alcoholism and THAT is shoved under the rug. Even our OWN generation of parents is keeping things quiet!!! Even my sister, who has been through years of therapy, and ought to know how damaging it is to deprive people of such knowledge. And how important it is to encourage openness among family members. She won't even go to family therapy with me!

Anyway, my child was born at a Salvation Army Home and Hospital. The women at the Hospital were wonderful. The hospital was wonderful. They placed me, at my request, in a nanny job taking care of three kids, and I did not actually stay at the hospital-home till the 9th month. But the S.A. connected me with other birthmothers, so we had a little group and went places together during our pregnancies. We became close friends. I guess we must have looked a sight, huh? 5 very pregnant teens and young 20s on the bus, laughing and having a grand time?

In my 9th month, we "girls" used to knit and crochet together, and make mosaics and stuff. It was like a really nice camp atmosphere. And the staff was just wonderful.

I was fortunate, though, too, because I had bought a book by Dr. Grantley ****-Reed of England, called **Childbirth Without Pain.** It showed how to do natural childbirth exercises. This was pre-lamaze. See, my daughter was born in 1964.

So I did my exercises daily. I also walked a mile daily. NONE of the other young women there did any exercise. The hospital did not show them anything to do, to prepare for their birth, and when they delivered, they had no anesthesia at all. It was a bad experience for them. But they were very admiring of me, because I came through it so well.

But soon after the delivery, I got into such severe post-partum depression that the staff didn't know what to do, I guess. So instead of allowing me to stay int he dormitory room with my friends, I got a private room. That was fine with me,because I sobbed constantly for a whole week.

I guess that's enough of my story for now.

Thank you all so much for this forum.

I really look forward to reading much more here.

Love,

ElderBerry

[Courtney Frey]

Dearest Elderberry ~

I am so glad that you found us! It is difficult to find a safe place on-line, and that was my goal when I agreed to take on this forum "Healing, Recovery, and Success." I am grateful that you found us here ... make sure you bookmark this forum so that you can come back to it easily!

You are very right when you wrote, "but all I've ever been able to find is ones that just attack me when I ask for anyone else who has had any thing at all similar to my own experience."

Dealing with the Real Issues is HARD! Not everyone is ready to do it. We all recover and heal at our own pace, in our own time, and in our own ways - which makes it difficult to combine groups of birthmothers in one place. Don't take it personally, the verbal lashings you may have gotten from others ... it is true that all of us speak from our own pain - not reallly directed towards you, but more so coming from how we feel about ourselves and our adoptions at the time.

In my first book, "One birthmothers Emotional Truth," I write about "Roots and Lies." The core issues that we MUST deal with BEFORE we can even deal with our relinquishment issues!

At an early age each of us are "trained" per say in how we deal with issues - and how we've dealt with our relinquishments is stemmed from how we've dealt with everything else in our life thus far. Until we face those issues and deal with them, we won't be able to successfully begin to recover from our loss.

With my own self, and what I write about in the book, "Exposing the Lies, Pulling the Roots," I realized that I was dealing with my relinquishment based on the years of abuse, rejection, abandonment, insecurity, fear, and ultimately my bi-polar way of living that had yet to be addressed. I was living as a victim, in all things in my life - powerless, afraid, and insecure. Needing others to validate my life and my pain, but yet un-able to really communicate that need in a healthy way. I had taken this on when, as a young child, I was too afraid to "tell" what was happening to me - so I tried to give off "signs" ... which never worked. Finally, at the age of nine I did get the courage to tell my father and his response was, "Don't say those kinds of things about my brother, I didn't raise you that way." So, I learned at a young age that I was a bad girl, and that I shouldn't "tell" anyone anything. This continued as a pattern in my life for many, many years.

When I finally was able to address this in myself, that yes in fact I was living as a victim, I was then able to "Feel" the emotions of what living that way had done to me. The anger alone nearly ravaged me! I couldn't believe that my loved ones never reckognized that I was in trouble, or that they allowed me to believe I was crazy instead of seeing that I got help. Boy, was I mad!!!! I became a "Bull dog" - and I came out biting! After about three months of deep therapy and solitude from my family, I came out like a raving lunitic! I confronted my family members, really told them, "You will not do this to me anymore!" I learned how to communicate my emotions and my needs.

Anyway ... I'm going on and on. But - I just wanted you to know that you aren't the only one - and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel! You're journey towards recovery and healing is your own and will not be the same as others, but you are supported and loved here. If you can, I suggest that you get my book - I have a feeling that you will be able to really relate to everything I've written.

I'm so glad you are here ... come often okay?
My love,
Courtney

[ElderBerry]

Courtney,

WONDERFUL to hear from you!! Of COURSE, I bookmarked this site immediately, as soon as I found you all!!!! Wow!! Was I happy!

You were stifled and abused, too, in ways I was not when I was a child. I don't know what went on with your uncle, but my abuse was from my dad. It was, as I said earlier here, I think, emotional and physical abuse. My dad, who was great a lot of the time, could "go off" instantly if anyone disagreed with him. And I had my OWN EYES, EARS could see and hear real well, and also had a mind, and was very creative. So although my upbringing at home and (of course!) in the schools tried to stifle all that, they were only successful in stifling SOME of it. Ergo, I fought tooth and claw with my dad: verbally, that is. Physically tooth and claw with my brother and sister, though. Was I ever a bully to my little siter. I was terribly emotionally cruel to her, thinking up hilarious ways to make a fool out of her, who was just a baby, more than six years younger than me. And I got my brother in on the act, so it was 2 to one against her. I was MEAN.

On the other hand, though, you saw THROUGH your family real clearly! I never did. They dominated me, scapegoated me, till I was in my FIFTIES!!!

People live to be too old. But on the other hand, we are gradually working things out. I just got home from visiting my mother. We decided we will find things to tell each other about "what I love about you." She is 85 and I am 60. She has been "cool" to "cold" all my life, but in these times, when I begin to see a tiny peep of a real person hiding in there, the shy little hermit crab come rusihing out to meet me, eyes shining!

A friend of hers had given her a beautiful bookmark, which said "A hug would make my day." Mother had found a section in a book she loves called **Kitchen Table Wisdom** and marked it for me to read. It's about how a woman with chronic fatigue syndrome stopped beating herself up about not being "in perfect health" and learned to be kind to herself, and live a fun and interesting life, and set limits with people and with herself when she was unable to do something, or to finish something.

Mother wanted me to read that because she said it makes her think of me,and how much I get done, and how creative I am and how much I do for others. She also marked it with THAT book marker. That's the only way she knows how to say she is lonely.

So I called her attention to that and told her I wanted to give her a big hug! And I did, and I meant it and gave her a warm, LOVING hug, the kind that are in short supply in my family of bony, A-frame huggers. And Mom hugged and squeezed me right back, too!

Well, Mom just blossomed and our visit was one of the best we have had. She really enjoyed it! She even enjoyed playing Yahtzee which she did not enjoy the first time she played it. (I had bought a game, and am leaving at her place -- she just lives 15 miles away,but I visit only once a month, ordinarily.) She now wants to play Yahtzee every time I visit. It was a blast. Usually she is much to serious about her games!! (It's bridge, or Scrabble, and she's a SERIOUS PLAYER and always wins.) And Yahtzee goes fast, and is just plain fun. (It didn't hurt a bit that BOTH of us got a Yahtzee early in the game, and that our final scores were really close, either!)

Well, Courtney, I'm well able to deal with reality and "my stuff." But I did get real morose after thinking again about my birth daughter, to tell ya the honest truth. I'm just so LIMITED in my energy and time. ANd I do feel so selfish too much of the time anyway, and am afraid maybe she has a personality disorder or something I am just NOT EQUIPPED TO DEAL WITH. (And anyone here who has a personality disorder, I do invite you to educate me about them, but my experience with people who have had them has been extremely painful and quite dreadful. And from what I have heard, one of the characteristics of personality disorders is that people who have them are not willing to get help. They want to go on being "who they are" whether than means treading HARD all over other people or not.) So that is one of my biggest fears. That daughter has been such a Troublemaker with a Capital T, and I just don't want to Bring Trouble Into My Life. I have enough to handle,[terrible mood swings, could never make a living, can't live with anyone -- all this I describe elsehwere here] which is why I gave her up for adoption at her birth.

I just have trouble living, and trouble understanding close relationships. It is too much for me to understand. Even her dear, kind adoptive mother, I have heard her say, "Well, **Bev** [not her real name] you don't have to **lie** about it....."

I feel if she is going to lie and be dishonest, she really does not DESERVE for me to put any effort out in her behalf. Probably there are those here who will feel this is very wrong of me to say that. But that is exactly how I feel. Not that feelings are logical!! Because I also feel love for her and wish things **could be** reasonable. But I **fear** they never can be reasonable. I fear my own jealousy, and her trouble-making nature. How she sets people up against one another. I fear her judgmentalness about my inability to view things about families in a "fairy tale" way. The way my sister does. (My sister and I are very good friends, now. She has forgiven me, for some reason, for my early bullying of her. I find this quite amazing. She is a wonderful person!)

My sister has this "fairy tale" view of families. And it has caused her no end of grief. But she will NOT admit to herself that she HAS this view. It is the strangest thing to see!! Complete sense of unreality about her own view of what the world around her is like. She can't figure out why people do not behave the way they do in fairy tale books. And then she gets terribly TERRIBLY upset -- to the point of rages, throwing things, screaming, hateful emotional abuse, manipulation of other people, therapy -- all because of this fairy tale view of what she thinks EVERYONE in the family should be like: from grandparents, to her husband (now ex- I wonder why? But he was terribly emotionally abusive to her!), to her grown kids (who forget her birthday), to me (she's finally accepted that I won't cooperate, and accepted that), to grandkids......And I fear that this daughter will treat me that same way. (Oh, and as I said elsewhere here, the daughter and my sister got along great when the daughter was here. They are a lot alike! That's what I meant by jealousy.) The daughter has definitely shown the signs of doing living in the fairytale view my sister lives in. She said, "But won't you feel bad if I have your grandchildren some day?" And I said it would not matter to me at all. And it doesn't. I honestly don't care. If I cannot have a relationship with her, what the heck difference does it make if I have blood relatives someplace? I have so many "callings" in my life, this is not one of them. I am a community leader, a giver, and I work helping people many, many hours per week, RIGHT HER IN MY OWN NEIGHBORHOOD. Why should I wear myself down, struggling and fighting to make a relationship with somebody I have not seen for over 10 years, who prior tothat I have never had a relationship with, who wants to know all about me genetically and I know next to nothing about MYSELF genetically? Who lives thousands of miles away from me, and who has already treated me so badly?

It is a dilemma. I don't know whether to go with the occasional heart surge that comes when I see a young woman who looks like her, or worry about her birth dad stalking me, or what.

ElderBerry

[Courtney Frey]

Dearest Elderberry ~

I saw SO much of my personality in your letter that I couldn't help but feel the emotions right along with you! You have definantly accepted your anger girl!!!!! Which is great.

It helps me to know so much of your family history and how everyone relates to one another now. I think it's important that you've been able to think about both your mothers and your sisters personalities and why it is they act and feel the way they do. One of the greatest things I read was that you have stopped taking responsability for it - I didn't sense that you take it on yourself to try to "fix" them. (I'm not saying the desire isn't there!)

Your "date" with your mom sounded excellent - what great walls were broken down! That the two of you could just enjoy a good game of Yahtzee together - that she had the strength to let go of some pride and give you that bookmark and that book is Tremendous! Treasure that.

I'm also sensing that you are a GREAT protector of self. I feel like maybe you've had to put up walls around yourself all of your life, in order to cut off some of the emotional need you've had that you may have been afraid to show. Maybe you've learned to meet those needs in other ways .... by trying not to appear vulnerable and by actually reversing your actions by seeming to be overly aggressive or overly helpful/giving?

Regardless, you should be proud of yourself for recognizing your limitations, what you are and are not willing to do both physically and emotionally - you're mom was right about that one herself!

You also wrote, "I feel if she is going to lie and be dishonest, she really does not DESERVE for me to put any effort out in her behalf. Probably there are those here who will feel this is very wrong of me to say that. But that is exactly how I feel. Not that feelings are logical!! Because I also feel love for her and wish things **could be** reasonable. But I **fear** they never can be reasonable. I fear my own jealousy, and her trouble-making nature."

First of all, when we're talking feelings, there are NO wrong things to say. But, as the famous Dr.Phil might add, "Why is it that you feel that way in the first place?" lol When I read this my first thoughts went to my own daughter, 8 yrs.old, whom I raise. She is the SPITTING image of me, physically and mentally. I am sure she has unfortunantly inherited bi-polar disorder but is too young to be accuratly diagnosed. My point is ... my 8 year old drives me crazy. We bat heads constantly. She can be very emotionally manipulating and her mood swings hit harder than a hurricane on the south seas. But each and every time I am called to deal with her - I have to tell myself - she is my daughter, I brought her into this world - I am responsable. I don't have a choice. Consider for a moment that while you chose to severe your parental ties to your child - reunion is the knot that brings it back again. Yes, you are a birthmother - but she IS still your child. I have to wonder ... did your mother ever make you feel un-worthy as her daughter? Did she ever tell you, "I can't deal with you right now," or, "You're too much for me too handle." Perhaps you, as I did, developed what is called "Performance Syndrome" as a daughter. Which means .... you felt that you had to "perform" in order to get love and approval or simply, time.

I completely understand your emotions and feelings and you have justified them well to yourself. But I also think you may want to try to understand WHY you feel this way. That doesn't necessarily mean that you're feelings will change - but it's important to be able to have an answer for yourself.

I also want you to know that what you are feeling and how you're feeling about your daughter is COMMON. I promise. This month alone I've spoken with THREE other birthmothers over the age of 45 who are going through the SAME thing.

I am so proud of you for being as candid and as honest as you have been about what your going through right now - you have no idea how this can touch others. It's so important that we share our journey's with one another, the good, the bad, and the ugly! Thank you so much for doing this, and for doing it here. And for trusting us with so much of your heart.

My love,
Courtney

[ElderBerry]

Courtney, Thanks SO MUCH for your sweet and understanding reply. It is interesting, too, to hear that just this month you have heard from 3 other birthmothers over 45 who are going through the same feelings as I am.

You wrote:

"did your mother ever make you feel un-worthy as her daughter? Did she ever tell you, "I can't deal with you right now," or, "You're too much for me too handle." Perhaps you, as I did, developed what is called "Performance Syndrome" as a daughter. Which means .... you felt that you had to "perform" in order to get love and approval or simply, time. "

Both my parents made me feel unworthy. In so many ways I can't possibly explain them all. One, as an adult, was after I stopped teaching public school and had been a successful independent piano teacher for several years. Mother took me over to the school where she was teaching (before she retired from the public schools) and put her arm around my waist the way she always did when she was around other people and wanted them to think she was affectionate, and said in a sing-song voice, "This is my daughter Berry! SHE used to be a teacher, TOO!" I said, "Mother, I am STILL a teacher."

Then, a few minutes later, she did the exact same thing with another one of her school teacher friends. I felt SO HURT and I had to explain in the greatest detail later in the car before she could understand what a putdown that was of me and my profession.

As a child, I was compared to my 2 paternal aunts who had photographic memories, played in symphonies, and one was the head of a University department. On my mother's side, I was compared to her, who had a phenomenal memory, a triple major, graduated from college Magna Cum Laude, her father was also head of another department at that same University. Both those individuals (my aunt and grandfather) now have whole ROOMS named after them at that university, with their pictures hanging there!!!!!

The family has, in my own generation and previous generations, lawyers; doctors; professors; professional musicians and opera singers; public school teachers (the women, but women in a few of the other professions, also); and politicians of minor historic renown. We also are all highly gifted and talented. (I have a gifted and talented friend who has an opposite problem -- her mother is NOT gifted and talented, and my friend had a terrible time growing up because her mother put her down so much and could never accept that her daughter was gifted! In my family, giftedness was taken for granted. And if one did not go right to the top of one's dean's list, become valedictorian, get a Natonional Merit Scholarship, and go to the top of their profession with no hassles, one was a Failure.

This is NOT to say our family does not also have people with depression, manic depression, and schizophrenia. We do. A few are completely non-functioning, sad to say. Like one cousin on my father's side, and one cousin on my mother's side. One whole family on my father's side was very crazy and have had serious, major problems. But this did not stop the uncle by marriage from being a professor, and my aunt from being an adjunct professor. It's my cousins in that family who are the real mess. At least one of them is a true genius -- but he's a mess psychologically anyway. I think he's a violent menace, personally. Some people in the family, including me, won't have anything to do with him. I have not seen him in 40 years, nor will I.

Sorry, that's a terribly long answer to a short question, Courtney!

Yes, my parents made me feel inadequate!

And there were other factors in my life which also made me feel inadequate: acne; being tall and thin in an era when only looking like Marilyn Monroe or Jayne Mansfield was considered beautiful and female; being athletic in an era and state where girls were not encouraged to be athletic unless they "fit in" with the jock crowd, which I didn't; being funnelled into office work when I had attended a highly creative and acedemic college which promised professional employment -- a lie to women of the 1960s!!! And having stretch marks, a grave point of shame. Oh, and being bipolar and highly sexual. Those are a few things that made me feel inadequate. I also have strong ethics and refuse to be forced to "go with the in-crowd" at work, or anywhere else, including junior high school. So you can imagine what my experience in high school and jr. hi were like. I was lucky to havae any friends at all! I did have a few, fortunately, but not like I did in grade school, when I had lots -- they all turned away from me when we reached 7th grade and they went with the flow, and I stayed the same ol' me.

Love,

ElderBerry

[frangela]

Courtney,

Just wanted to say that even though I don't know you that well or for that long, I think I admire you more than anyone I have ever met in my entire life.

I have just spent the last 2 hours pouring through messages on this board. It's wonderful how you always come through for someone with just the right words. Always understanding and never judging. Thank you.

If there is ever anything you need help on in your research, please let me know. I am fascinated by many things in this healing process. Also, delving into these issues and looking at them objectively helps me more than anything else.

Thank you for monitoring this website. You give us all strength, support, love, and hope through this board and through us having each other.

Angela
elfgirl9@hotmail.com

PS. My doctor thinks I'm bipolar as well, although the lithium they put me on was so horrible, I went off it and never went back to the doctor. I wonder if our bipolar qualities are brought out by the constant ups-and-downs that Birthmothers go through in their healing?!?