[Hadley2]

I did not judge you in any way. I simply untangled the issues you voiced and presented them as questions to adult adoptees in clear language minus your arguments.

Originally Posted by WVMOMof2

In cases of abuse and neglect experts recommend closed adoption.

This is a red herring. This child's brother did NOT abuse and neglect her. The proposed relationship does NOT involve the birthparents, who did. The phrases "open" and "closed" adoptions are usually taken to mean open and closed with respect to the birthparents. Yes, an extended meaning can be taken, but anything you read recommending closed in foster cases is referring to "open" and "closed" with respect to the birthparents, not siblings.

I am not a zealot of anything and have not given you any cruel or unkind responses here or anywhere else. On the contrary, I've been understanding and sympathetic to your feelings. I am vehemently opposed to open adoption agreements, for instance, and would resist having any kind of court order that curtailed my ability to parent responsibly over the course of a childhood. Those are entirely separate issues, though, from the question of whether, given safe circumstances, some contact and relationship between siblings would be beneficial or harmful.

Your position, and it is a position and opinion, is that early relationship would be harmful. You just said that in your answer above. You say that psychologists support that position but the fact is that, as a group, they don't. If you have a specific psychologist who has examined and treated your fd and concluded that seeing this baby now will harm her for some reason, that might be different, but you don't.

So if you want adult adoptees' honest take on whether contact and the start of a relationship now would be beneficial or harmful, then those questions need to be posed clearly.

If you conclude that your family as a whole would have difficulty with establishing and maintaining that relationship now, despite the benefits to your fd, then that is a consideration worthy of thought and respect. If trying to do this would disrupt the peace of your household, then that is the issue that needs to be addressed. I fully understand that, I do, but that is separate from figuring out, first, what is or isn't beneficial or harmful to your fd's developmental health.

I can tell you that our daughter did not have the opportunity to meet her half-siblings until the older ages you suggest. Their occasional meetings now--the others are teens and 20s, she is grade school age--are affectionate and curious but awkward and not as close as any of them would like. Her brothers were, actually, mute, just smiling and friendly, but with no idea of what to say or do. The separation they endured has hurt them all. We are working hard to plant and nurture the seeds of relationship so that when she grows up they will continue to have each other, but it is very difficult at this late stage of the game.

But I would prefer not to derail your thread. My first post was and is meant to keep it on track by posing your questions in a simple and clear way to the adoptees of this board.

[Hadley2]

Originally Posted by Hadley2

But I would prefer not to derail your thread. My first post was and is meant to keep it on track by posing your questions in a simple and clear way to the adoptees of this board.

To that end, and putting aside questions of court orders and social service threats:

You are asking whether or not adoptees think that contact between a 21-month old toddler girl and her 7-month old baby brother, she to be adopted by nonrelative foster parents and he to be adopted by or in the guardianship of his grandparents, would be beneficial or harmful to her. The birthparents are not involved.

What do adoptees think of this girl's situation?

- Will seeing her baby brother now harm her?

- Will seeing her baby brother now be a good thing for her?

- Will getting to know her baby brother at a nonverbal age put her at risk?

- Will starting a relationship with him now be "traumatic," "confusing," disruptive to the girl's sense of identity and socio-economic class, and lead her, via a "self-fulfilling prophecy" down a disturbing path to the same sorts of choices and lower-class values her abusive, neglectful birthparents made?

- Will getting to know her baby brother later, rather than sooner, put her less at risk?

- Will there be any harm done to the girl if she does not start a relationship with her baby biobrother as early as possible?

- Will the girl suffer any life loss as a result of not starting a relationship with her baby biobrother as early as possible?

- Would the girl's relationship as sister to her adopted brother be put at risk by starting a relationship now with her baby biobrother?

- Will the girl be grateful her parents did not bring her together with her baby brother at a young age?

- Will the girl be grateful and bond to her mother more deeply, if she thinks of and chooses to ask to see him when she is older if her mother then agrees and makes it happen?

- Will that gratefulness stand the test of time?

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by Hadley2

To that end, and putting aside questions of court orders and social service threats:

You are asking whether or not adoptees think that contact between a 21-month old toddler girl and her 7-month old baby brother, she to be adopted by nonrelative foster parents and he to be adopted by or in the guardianship of his grandparents, would be beneficial or harmful to her. The birthparents are not involved.

What do adoptees think of this girl's situation?

- Will seeing her baby brother now harm her?

I do not have any experience as a closed era adoptee and as I said earlier it seems strange but I am old. But if I look at it from an extended family contact like a cousin which is the only refence I would have, then I can only say that I deep appreciate the bond I have from life long continual contact with my cousins and that is a very good thing.

Note all answers are based on the above reasons.

- Will seeing her baby brother now be a good thing for her?

It would be a good thing to always know.

- Will getting to know her baby brother at a nonverbal age put her at risk?

No

- Will starting a relationship with him now be "traumatic," "confusing," disruptive to the girl's sense of identity and socio-economic class, and lead her, via a "self-fulfilling prophecy" down a disturbing path to the same sorts of choices and lower-class values her abusive, neglectful birthparents made?

Interesting...in my mind I think sheltering children too much creates a stronger urge to act out in teenage years than a healthy dose of the reality factor.

- Will getting to know her baby brother later, rather than sooner, put her less at risk?

No.

- Will there be any harm done to the girl if she does not start a relationship with her baby biobrother as early as possible?

As I look at trying to form bonds with siblings as an adult - the lack of early history is a big loss and something that is hard and next to impossible to overcome and that hurts so very much.

- Will the girl suffer any life loss as a result of not starting a relationship with her baby biobrother as early as possible?

See answer above.

- Would the girl's relationship as sister to her adopted brother be put at risk by starting a relationship now with her baby biobrother?

No, a brother is a brother and as an adoptee family is family regardless of what the actual connection is.

- Will the girl be grateful her parents did not bring her together with her baby brother at a young age?

No.

- Will the girl be grateful and bond to her mother more deeply, if she thinks of and chooses to ask to see him when she is older if her mother then agrees and makes it happen?

No, we bond to our mom and dad because they are our mom and dad and they love us and care for us and are always there for us.

- Will that gratefulness stand the test of time?

Gratefulness is such a trigger word to some adoptees including myself. If I separate being adopted from the equation I am incredibly grateful and thankful to my mom and dad for who they are, what I learned from them and how much they love/loved me. If someone asks if I am grateful to be adopted...not so much KWIM?

My answers are below each question.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[WVMOMof2]

Thanks for the insight. I have no plans to keep her from her half-bio-sib(s) she will know of him/them her whole life. It will make our bond stronger and build trust when I speak of him/them in a positive light. That baby boy never did anything to her. She has been with us since she was 2 months old, before the baby boy was conceived, and their common bio-moms rights to my daughter were terminated a month before the bio-half-sib was born. I'm struggling to understand if the purpose of sibiling visits is to maintain and preserve a bond that was formed before they were separated... what the purpose of these visits now could be... they were never together and never formed a bond. Too much emphasis is placed on biology. I acknowledge she needs to know of him and I need to respect and honor her wishes when she wants to meet him/them.
There is evidence to suggest knowing about adoption/siblings at a young age can be harmful to a childs self-image and emotional development and they should be told in small, honest age appropriate blocks. Nobody is talking about deceiving her or keeping them apart from each other. Indirect contact for now is appropriate for this situation. Are their children who grow up well adjusted by knowing at 2-3.... sure. But studies show they are exceptions to the norm. But, there are also secure, happy adults that find out at 18, but I now realize that is not in the best interest of my child. The best plan for my child is to know of the bio-half-sibling so there is no "big reveal". But the focus right now should be on her continued stability and knowing she is 100% part of her/our family.
It needs to be her choice and court ordered visits are only appropriate for siblings who formed a bond and, then, are separated.
She deserves to know about him... but, for right now, it is my choice and if it's a choice between potential harm and potential benefits... I choose to keep my child out of harm's way.
I am a loving, kind, responsible parent and have sought out advice from books, articles, psychologists, and adult adoptees in this forum and in person. We have read post-adoption contact books and researched children's book to read to her.
I'm not just crossing my arms and holding my breath and saying "I don't wanna" my initial reaction was "great, more people to love her and more people for her to love" but, my husband and I have researched all angles and harm can (I'm not saying will) be done and any benefits would benefit her more a little later, when it's her choice. She will always know of him and it will be a more positive experience for her if it's her choice and not forced upon her.
One psychologist says "my clinical data unequivocally demonstrates the traumatic effect of early communication and its participation in anxiety, confusion and regression... the needs and development of a child of 2 or 3 years are not well served by revelation of his adoptive status". How could I ignore that? And experts agree that contact with a half-bio-siblings at this age will bring about questions and feelings of rejection too soon, too fast at an age where a toddler/preschooler is not mentally or emotionally capable of managing it. Nobody has a crystal ball and can predict the future. All we can do is what is right for our child and our situation. Nobody can know all of the background and nuances that lead us to the decisions we make. I would not begin to tell another mother how to raise her child. While I appreciate any advice people of experience and experts can provide and have taken it all into consideration, I can only take that advice and see where it fits into my situation. It is not helpful to have people chasing me from board-to-board and smacking me down like a childish game of whack-a-mole. It has been very helpful to get the opinions of adult adoptees both in this forum... through private messages... through research... and through personal contact.
Thanks for the advice and support. And I was paying attention... when she does meet her half-bio-siblings... her brother/my son will be there : )
I am confident our research has given us a plan that is the least invasive to our child, with the greatest potention of securing her stability and happiness... and will result in the greater good (a more positive way of saying lesser evil).... giving her a loving family and stability while trying to find a way to fit the bio-half-sibling into her story. We will find our way together as a family.
Perhaps I will consult this website again as new challenges arise. Thank you. Bye : )

[bromanchik]

Originally Posted by WVMOMof2

There is evidence to suggest knowing about adoption/siblings at a young age can be harmful to a childs self-image and emotional development and they should be told in small, honest age appropriate blocks.

One psychologist says "my clinical data unequivocally demonstrates the traumatic effect of early communication and its participation in anxiety, confusion and regression... the needs and development of a child of 2 or 3 years are not well served by revelation of his adoptive status".

I am a therapist that has worked in the field of adoption for 22 years. I am also a clinical trauma specialist. I would love to see the research that this psychologist is quoting because, to be honest, I have never come across any studies that suggest what he is saying.

You can pm me if you like.

[Hadley2]

Whether or not WVMOMof2 wants to read the answers, I think it would be valuable for adult adoptees to answer the simple questions raised by her concerns.

I did jump from board to board to follow the topic. I did, a little presumptively, rephrase her questions in simple, clear language that got to the heart of each issue while being devoid of arguments or bias. The intent was to present them so that anyone reading them would know what is truly being asked and be able to answer in a straightforward manner. I did, and now wish I hadn't, post a follow up that schussed out her opinions and arguments a bit, but then followed up again with the unvarnished questions.

A little unusual sequence for posts but I think OK because I think adoptees' answers to these clear questions without confusing tangents, stacked arguments, or filtered interpretation are important for all adoptive parents to hear.

They are just questions, no argument, no citing of other sources, just open questions seeking adult adoptees' thoughts. Clearly, they will yield generalized answers based on personal experience to the generalized situation.

I am fairly sure this thread is being watched for answers by many adoptive parents who struggle with the same questions. I think now is a good time to let them hear the adoptee's take on them.

[Dickons]

Originally Posted by WVMOMof2

Too much emphasis is placed on biology.

I just want to address this one statement. To some adoptees (not all) biology is incredibly important.

I had the chance to ask a couple of questions through very indirect channels about 20 years ago. I thought about it for a while and following were my queries:

1. What nationality am I.
2. Do I have siblings.

Then later when I had to find my family (most know the back story) I hired a company and spent a considerable sum of money I did not have, and I have to say that it was an equal need in my heart that my family know to protect my siblings, versus my need for health info. Perhaps even greater if the knowledge could prevent them from going through what I went through.

So for some of us, even though we have a wonderful family that no one can ever replace, that we are bonded to for life...BIOLOGY is incredibly important and cannot be simply dismissed as having too much emphasis placed on it.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[hpfreak080]

Hadley, with all due respect, I find it difficult to even begin to answer those questions...

I'd like to think no, the girl would not be "at risk" for anything due to meeting her bio-brother or that it wouldn't be harmful, traumatic or confusing to her (I'm thinking that it probably wouldn't...) but, to be honest, maybe THIS PARTICULAR GIRL (caps only for emphasis, not yelling) would be traumatized or confused (none of us can say that she won't be for sure).

My gut tells me that she would be fine, but I don't know that and maybe that's why it is difficult for me to answer. I was raised in a closed adoption (currently, many of us were) and didn't know of any bio-siblings growing up so I guess I'm not the best authority on these matters...

I guess I can't guess how she (the daughter) will respond to this particular situation any more than I can guess the responses of anyone.

::sigh:: I know this wasn't the answer you were looking for Hadley...I just have NO idea how to answer those questions...

[mommytoEli]

whenever i read what the "experts" have to say about adoption, i often wonder if they even know anyone adopted.

[Dickons]

MommytoEli,

Don't you know - everyone knows one adoptee and we are all the same so if you know one - you know all of us including all the thoughts we would never voice that may make them uncomfortable and reassess their pre-concieved view points.

Thanks for the reality factor comment!

Kind regards,
Dickons

[mommytoEli]

Originally Posted by Dickons

MommytoEli,

Don't you know - everyone knows one adoptee and we are all the same so if you know one - you know all of us including all the thoughts we would never voice that may make them uncomfortable and reassess their pre-concieved view points.

Thanks for the reality factor comment!

Kind regards,
Dickons

oh man...i guess i didn't read that part of the manual that came with my kids. lol. i'll make a note of it.

[BethVA62]

If only little babies could sit up in their cribs and tell us what they want.

All these questions, biased or not, are a bit tuff.

If it were me, I would want to know my half brother my whole life. I wouldn't care to much about what all the adults are up to.

I think it would be damaging to pop up and have to meet a brother one day, and go thru all the questions and reassesments of my life then. Must be easier just to know yer bro, no big deal, he's just one of your brothers, one that lives at his grandmas. Not confusing at all to me, an adoptee.

[BethVA62]

It's not the telling a child about thier adoption that is traumatic, (well, maybe for mom and dad LOL) it's the actual events and separation from family that is the traumatic part.

Telling them, and being honest with them in an age appropriate way will help them live with that trauma.

Think of how you would talk to them openly about their personal situations, relationships and non-relationships if they were an adult, and go backwards from there.

Heck, I'd have them at Penny's tommorrow getting a sibling shot of them together, so when I did talk with her about them, she'd have a pic of her and her brother hanging out together from the beginning. Sure would make it no big deal to me.

[BethVA62]

PS
A sibling shot with her and both of HER brothers.
A picture of Her life.

[thanksgivingmom]

For me - I read this and it doesn't always have to be an adoption issue....

I have four half brothers and two half sisters.

I was raised knowing my half brothers. One of them is now one of my best friends. I'm incredibly close with their children. I vacation with some of them and we're not just family, but friends as well.

I'm not SUPER close with all four of them - but at least I was given the opportunity to be.

My two half sisters? I barely remember from growing up. I always knew they existed and that they were my sisters, but we weren't given the opportunity to form real relationships. Their Mother kept them away from us when I was small and it wasn't until later that we were "allowed" (by her, my parents always wanted the connection) to develop a relationship.

Personally? I do wish that I could have just had them be "sisters" from the beginning. I know we never lived together, would never live together, didn't vacation together, had different lives, etc., but none of that confused me. What DID confuse me is that I wasn't allowed to see them. I don't think I ever asked to either....I don't think it would have occurred to me honestly. I just took the way it was for the way it was.

I do understand that adoption compounds the issue in different ways - and I absolutely admit that I can't speak to that from an adoptees point of view - but I think that sometimes we just have to look at the relationships too.