[MomToThree]

I posted this under "Sibling Group", but felt that this forum would be a better fit for my issue.

My DH and I adopted 3 children in 2005. In February 2007, my middle son was caught stealing at school, and "begged and cried" that the teacher and assistant teacher not tell his parents because he would "have to eat liver with hot sauce".

Many of you may think liver as a punishment is wrong... but it worked. The hot sauce was always a threat if he didn't hurry up and eat.

Anyway a Social Worker visited, and he admitted that this was stupid and a waste of his time but his supervisor made him investigate. I explained all my disciplinarian efforts which includes paddling and I asked what I needed to do to just make him go away. Afterwards, I received a letter that me and my DH signed saying that we would not use hot sauce as a punishment, and that the case was closed and no further action was necessary.

Please understand that the two youngest boys were and are to some extent stubborn, and were a trial in the beginning. But we have finally gotten to a point where our biggest problem is that the youngest child sometimes refuses to do his class work or home work.

Our whole family... me, my DH, and each child have looked at a listing online for a sibling group where one child is 16 and the other 12 and would really love to add them to our family. We have enough room and would love to include these kids into our lives, but the county refuses to license us because of this liver/hot sauce incident. They also disapprove of the fact that we paddle.

We would really love to add to our family, but don't know how at this point. Until this, we were considered excellent adoptive parents. What should I do? Also, please be kind with your responses... my three were very difficult the first 2 years, and are now pretty much acclimated. My kids really want another brother and sister... not to mention how we parents feel.

Thanks for any advice you give.

[greenmama]

Here you wouldn't be able to adopt...the discipline would be unacceptable and the previous investigation would be an issue as well.

[txwannabemom]

The discipline would be unacceptable and in TX we signed away our right to spank while still in our foster/adopt training classes. You would not be able to adopt here either.

[JustAntotherThought]

Here we agreed to never paddle a foster child/adopted child who had been abused or neglected even after we adopt them (for the rest of their lives).

We didn't have to make that same agreement with our biological children, although I am sure if we stated that paddling was one of our primary discipline methods we would be highly scrutinized.

Sorry but I am not a fan of using food as discipline either And we also agree when foster parenting/foster adopt not to use food as discipline in our state also.

[embuck]

Personally I think the liver thing is funny. I mean, its not like your making him eat something offensive or really that horrible. People eat liver all the time and love it. The fact that he hates it and it works for you is actually really awesome. I am not too sure about the hot sauce though, but that is up to you, I would on the other hand like to add to that is the fact that he even eats it. There will come a time where he refuses to eat the liver with our without the hot sauce, and then what? Will you force it in his mouth? That will probably only end in something bad.

Did you ever sign anything that said you would not use physical punishment? If so then you broke the contract and the fact that you have already adopted them, I am not sure they can really do anything about the paddling now but they can and will prevent you from fostering and or adopting in the future. These are the rules. You break the rules you don't get to play the game.

If you haven't ever signed anything I would suggest asking if you could, just like the food thing, perhaps they would consider as long as you don't go back on that. In Texas we sign both the no touch contract, no physical punishment and a contract of things to do and not to do. Using food as punishment is one of the big things NOT TO DO. But I don't know if it really specified making a child eat something they didn't want to. It really mostly said not to take food away from them as punishment since eating is basically part of theirs, (our) human rights and needs.

You would also have to stop using that as a form of punishment on your adopted children as well... but then who's to say you won't go back when you are finished adopting.... not saying I am personally bashing you for your discipline methods BUT I am saying this is how your agency is thinking of this. You should really re-evaluate what your willing to give up for the children you are considering adding to your family.

[embuck]

Also I would like to add that the other day when I was in one of our PRIDE classes, following up on my hours for my license. There was a gentleman there who was already a foster parent and couldn't understand why he couldn't use MACE on his foster childrent if they became more then he could handle. He didn't want to leave his house and call the cops if it got to that point, like the instructor told us to do, instead he said he would rather use MACE on a CHILD then run "from my home".

Point being if you use MACE on a child I am pretty sure this would....work, as much as making a child eat liver and hot sauce. Now the question is, even though it "works", is it really the right thing to do?

Allot of things work, find something that works within the guildlines of the agency contract you signed.

[greenmama]

Liver is where all the toxins in the body are stored...why would ANYONE want a child to eat that anyway??

[MamaS]

Liver and onions are actually considered a health food in some areas. (The toxins cook out.) Liver is full of iron and was recommended -- along with spinach -- for "iron poor blood". I can remember my grandmother serving liver and onions in the winter as protection against influenza and pneumonia (before there were vaccinations). She lived to be 104, so maybe there was something to it!

[greenrobin]

it's eaten because it is rich in iron.

We are TX fost/adopt parents. We did not "sign away our rights" to spank any of the children who are legally ours. We were, however, educated on what is considered appropriate forms of discipline for foster children.

However, AFTER adoption is finalized and consummated, the kids belong to YOU. Not the state. You are not relieved of your responsibility to not abuse, but the rules are less stringent. Common sense applies.

I am sorry that you are having difficulties. As with anything legal, why not consult an attorney? They may be able to help you, at least in understanding what your rights are here.

[MomToThree]

In my state, NC, as a foster parent you cannot use physical punishment. And yes I signed an agreement to that effect. However, once the adoption is final the rules for fostering do not apply. It is legal to feed your children liver and to paddle... as long as you do not leave bruises.

As a matter of fact, one psychiatrist recommended using paddling for extreme behaviors such as when my son took a lighter and burnt several things in his bedroom one night. I can honestly say that he hasn't touched another lighter/matches in the past three years.

Also, I am not an uneducated/ignorant person and have read many of the books and psych literature out there that are supposed to help teach me how to be a parent to my adopted children. I tried everything... love and logic, natural consequences, etc. If you can think of it... I've tried it. My children are now 9, 10, and 12 years old. They have now arrived to a point in their development that discipline is not an issue anymore. I can't even remember the last time I used a paddle.

I have found yard work and house cleaning to be effective. All I have to do now is say "Do you want to pull weeds?". It works like a charm.

As for whether or not my children came from an abusive situation... I can say no they didn't. My youngest 2 were taken from their birth family when 1 was 15 months old and the other was 2 months old. The situation involved a dead-beat dad and a mother that has an IQ of 70. She couldn't get her act straight and provide a suitable home for the children.

Every adoption is different. Every child is different. Even with my 3, I have found different things work other than spanking. However... I do not prescribe to the belief that spanking a child teaches them to react violently when dealing with others.

The liver thing sprang from the fact that I did not want to paddle my child. My middle son was stealing ice creams and fruit roll-ups from the school cafeteria. He took these things not because he was hungry but because he just wanted it. As a result, I felt that giving him something like liver when he stole sweet things would stop the behavior and it did. And before anyone bashes me, I worked with the teacher and she would check my son's lunch once he sat down... and if he went the whole week without stealing, he was allowed to buy one of these treats as a reward. The first week was successfull. But we continued to watch him and tried to reward him for another 2 months. He just kept stealing.

CPS was called one day because he had been caught stealing again, and he cried and begged for the teacher not to tell me because he would have to eat liver...which by the way is an excellent source of iron and is prescribed by doctor's for anemia.

The teacher didn't even make the call... the assistant did. And both the teacher and the principal at the school were upset with the assistant for doing it. They both knew the situation, and felt like she should have talked with them first.

And let me repeat... hot sauce was a threat to get him to finish eating... it wasn't used. However, since I use it in my chili, spaghetti, and hot wings (which he likes), I know my son does not have an allergic reaction to it. It is against the law to rinse a child's mouth out with soap, but using a condiment that is intended for ingestion is not.

And no... I would never force feed my son. I would just keep giving him liver for each meal until he ate it. You don't have to make a kid eat... you just have to provide food. Eventually they will eat it.

That said... I am peeved that anyone would make a big deal out of this and would cause me to be unable to adopt these older children. They are in separate homes, and my heart hurts for them. I was raised in the "system", away from my sister; and want to do whatever I can to unite siblings. That is why I adopted my 3 in the first place.

Just to add fuel to the fire, when we were fostering, and the youngest one would act out or destroy something, the SW over our case said "you can spank him once the adoption is final".

[BZmom7]

I fix Liver & Onions to my family and they LOVE IT...even the foster children! I was raised on it, and see nothing wrong with feeding it to children.

[BrandyHagz]

I've deleted one post from this thread and edited another.

Respectful participation is a REQUIREMENT for participation on this forum. You may not agree with another poster, which is fine, but you MUST reply in a respectful and kind manner.

[peregrinerose]

When we started on this road, also looking at older kids (age 12+), we had to sign a contract stating that there would be absolutely no physical consequences at all... hitting, spanking, paddling, etc.

These kids sometimes know nothing but violence, so to hit them or paddle them only re-enforces that. Besides, a smack on the hind end might get the attention of a 3 year old, but is completely inappropriate on a 12 year old.... it teaches them nothing about dealing with conflict.

Look at what paddling does through the eyes of a child that's already been abused and neglected. If you do it honestly, and do a lot of digging through the psych research, you'll probably find much more appropriate and effective ways to handle things.

[BrandyHagz]

peregrinerose:

If you have a question regarding a deleted post, feel free to send me a Private Message. I've removed your comment regarding the moderation that has already taken place (and is no longer available for view) on this thread.

[committedsoul]

I LOVE liver and onions... tastes awesome with grits...rice too... it was recommended by my physician for my severe anemia. My kids love it as well and I grew up eating it...

OP, I think your best bet may be to consult an attorney. I am in NC as well and I was told that any form of physical punishment was a definite dealbreaker.