[vicrose]

I just had to post here..because even though I have not been directly exposed to the foster care system...there was a time about 11 years ago when I was going through a very messy divorce..and my ex-husband had called Social Services on me three separate times in a matter of 1 1/2 years..it got to the point that I would just invite the case workers in and we'd have a cup of coffee..I was on a first name basis with them...all because my ex-husband kept calling them and telling them that I was abusing my children..hitting them, not feeding them...any lie he could possibly make up..and you want to know why..because he figured that if I lost custody of my babies..that they would go into foster care, and he wouldn't have to pay child support. Thank God that I am no the kind of Mother who has ever thought of spanking..because I probably wouldn't have my babies if I was...my ex was hell bent on getting them taken away from me. My name stayed listed with they're offices for approximately 3 years...and the last caseworker said that she was going to flag my file..because the charges were so ridiculous!! But let's assume that they had believed my ex-husband...I wouldn't have my babies...and it probably would've taken a whole lot of money and court time to prove that all the allegations were false. I mean, I thank God that the caseworkers were doing they're jobs...but I see innocent people's kids taken away a lot..far more than should be. Oh, and by the way...when the case workers stopped paying attention to my ex's false allegations...he moved 1500 miles away, and rerely sees the kids he told them that he loved soooo much!!!! Hugs, Brenda

[Sandyy]

Kristie,
I have worked directly with children for the past 15years. I think it is interesting that you use the fact that 1/3 of the children that were removed from the parents had unsubstantiated reports of abuse/neglect and then state that parents then have to be the ones to prove they are innocent. Just because something can't be proven in a court doesn't mean that it isn't true. But if not proven then the child is returned to the home. It is difficult to "prove" neglect. Even abuse with bruises and fractures seem to be less horrific over time. In the state I work in you won't get CPS to take a report on a child just because of poverty or because of the parents substance abuse.

I have seen children taken from loving families that needed more help. But we live in a free country where you don't have to take your mental health meds if you don't want to. And you can't really believe that a parent with a substance abuse problem doesn't hurt or neglect their children! I see the hurt of those children daily. Drug use is NOT a victimless crime. Our country's children pay the price daily!

[KristieMaureen]

Whoa - hold the phone. I never once denied that there are legitimate reasons for placing a child in foster care, or that moving those legitimate foster care placements to permanence was a bad thing. I also never stated that all parents of children in foster care work hard to get their children back - they don't. That's a basic fact.

Also, please don't tell me I know nothing of abuse and neglect. I worked for far too long with abused/neglected children in an educational setting. I worked with a 3 year old boy who was able to vividly describe how he would stab his mother with a butcher knife just as his mom's boyfriend had stabbed her repeatedly. I worked with a 4 year old girl who we could never allow alone with other children because she would sexually assault them as she had been assaulted. I worked with a 3 year old girl and her 19 month old sister who only communicated through grunts because their parents had neglected to speak to them - these girls hadn't learned how to speak.

Add to that the fact that my husband, his younger sister, and his older developmentally disabled sister suffered more than a decade of physical and sexual abuse at the hands of a series of his mother's boyfriends... and the long-term effects that has had on him (he wouldn't even bathe our daughter when she was young because of the numerous times he'd been abused while bathing).

I've said NOTHING of legitimate, substantiated cases of abuse and neglect.

What I have stated here is what industry professionals have found.... social workers have found in their own departments. 500,000 children in foster care, and 165,000 of those SHOULD NOT have been taken from their homes. Period. 165,000 children ripped from their homes without any substantiated reason... 165,000 children put at 10 times greater risk for abuse/neglect within the foster care system.... 165,000 families forced to prove they've done nothing wrong when nobody has ever proved they did anything wrong to begin with... 165,000 families forced to try fulfill reunification plans with no justification.

What I've also stated is that it's a myth to believe there are enough social supports to go around. Social supports don't exist without adequate funding, and funding is in limited supply. For just one funding source I approached for my organization last year, there were over $4 Million in requests, and only $1 Million in available funds. We needed $300,000 to run one program, and only received $175,000. That means we didn't provide services for more than half of the people who sought help for that program - a program that assists abused spouses and children. And those are only the ones who sought help, not the countless others who are actually elligible.

We can all site individual examples of when the system did work, and when it didn't. We can argue back and forth all day long in that manner. What's less easy to argue is when social services professional pull out the actual statistics and say "1/3 of all foster children are needlessly removed from their homes". It's less easy to argue when we point out how many more people we turn away from assistance than we help because we don't have enough resources.

Kristie
Adult Adoptee

[Sharon]

I had an experience similar to Brenda's many years ago. Social Service scrutiny fell upon me and my husband when my son, less than a year old, climbed out of his playpen and fell to the floor, breaking his arm.
I will never forget the experience of being interrogated by ER doctors and by the hospital social worker. First, a doctor accused me and my husband of smelling like marijuana smoke (?). This line of questioning abruptly ended when we demanded to be given the opportunity to take a urinalysis. After my son's arm was X-rayed, the doctor flatly told us that it looked like a "spiral fracture" and that "basically, the only way this happens to a baby is if someone twists his arm".
I will never forget the doctor's words, the hateful tone in which he delivered them, or the stupid way he looked.
We were protected by the fact that there were several witnesses present in our home at the time of the incident... we were also protected, I believe, by our youth and our ignorance of the system. We were not intimidated. We were dismissive of the charges and vehement in defending ourselves; we never realized until years later how close we came to losing our son.
Because of this personal experience, and because of many things I've learned since then, I do believe that many children are removed unjustly from their biological parents and placed in the foster system without cause. Knowing what I know now, I would be much more frightened if the situation occurred again. I remain convinced to this day that if I had not had friends over at the time my son fell, if I had shown fear instead of disdain when questioned, if my skin had been a different color, if any one of dozens of variables had been different, I would've lost my son; probably permanently.
JMO, ~ Sharon

[HappyMomAnna]

Kristy---I don't think any of us would argue that there are cases where families are left in the situation of getting children out of Foster Care because they were taken unfairly---I personally experienced it and know it does happen.....

In order that I might be as well educated as your are about the 165,000 number of mistakes--could you please point me in the right direction to find this info ---I generally don't cite stats untill I have a chance to review them for myself and know exactly where to direct people who ask me to verify my facts. I would be interested in where you got your info so that if I should repeat it or decide to make it part of my dialog I will know my facts.....could you direct me to where you found your facts.

Thanks.

[KristieMaureen]

I certainly wish people would read posts and ask questions when they don't understand, rather than assuming things.

Sandy,

I never said I don't believe substance abuse harms children. Of course it does! The example of the reunification plan for the substance abusing father was used to point out how onerous these case plans can be, and how ridiculous it is to try to expect parents to fulfill all elements of these plans in an incredibly short time-frame with limited support available. Should that father have been forced to undergo substance abuse treatment? You bet! Should he have been expected to complete every single element and its accompanying recommendations in just 16 months? Not a chance. You may find it interesting to note that, in that particular case, the State of Florida moved to terminate the father's rights despite the fact that he successfully completed substance abuse treatment, had undergone psych evaluation, and had completed most of the other elements. The father appealed the case, and the appellate court ruled the State was wrong. The child was returned to her father... but only after 3 years in foster care due to the termination proceedings and subsequent appeals winding their way through the court system.

As for having to prove things... you certainly do! If I'm charged with shoplifting, the store has to provide proof that I've done so. They aren't just allowed to say "she stole a scarf - jail her". They have to provide video camera footage, eye witnesses, etc. If I'm charged with abusing my child, the State has to provide proof of that in order to jail me. They have to bring forth documentation of physical bruises inconsistent with normal childhood accidents, provide witnesses, etc. But the State doesn't have to prove allegations of abuse before removing my child from my home?? Instead, I have to prove I'm a fit parent to get my child back? How does that make sense to anyone?

Preventive intervention is what's being taught to social workers. Ask social workers yourselves... when they go through training their told to practice "cover your arse" and "err on the side of the child", which has resulted in 165,000 children being torn from their homes without any reason. These aren't my numbers, and they aren't numbers from one State or just one report... these are numbers from numerous reports, consistent over decades, provided by actual courts, States, social workers, and the federal government.

And my question still stands... when our government is trying to figure out a way to reduce the number of children languishing in foster care, why is the focus on getting those already in foster care adopted, without focusing on preventing wrongful removals of non-abused, non-neglected children?

Kristie
Adult Adoptee

[HappyMomAnna]

I don't seem to find these kinds of numbers reported. There are numbers but I do not find 1/3 or 165,000 wrongful removals.

What I do find is two young 13-year old girls who are DEAD because social services did not step in and protect Ashley Pond and Miranda Gadis...... Ashley Ponds siblings have been placed in Foster Care a year and a half later---the state is on the hook for a huge bill to prosecute the murderer and pay the wrongful death suit filed by the second little girls family......

In fact more often then not the out cry is for and about the children who are not protected.

If I am arrested for shoplifting it is TRUE I am innocent until proven guilty----but that does not mean I will not face a horrible series of events before my innocence is proven. I may be hauled down and booked.....I may have to post bail.....I may have to stand in front of my peers and pray they believe me.....and it will all be He!! no doubt.....but hopefully if I am innocent it will be proven. There are people who are convicted wrongfully as well. It is horrible but, this is the system we have.....

I am still interested in being able to back up what I say and I cannot say 165,000 or 1/3 of the children in Foster Care are there for any wrong reason.....I am still interested in some point into the direction of where you are finding your data.

[KristieMaureen]

Many of these can be acquired by a simple Google search. For others, the organization/agency will have to be contacted directly.

Testimony of Peter Digre, President Clinton's Budget Proposal For New Funding for Child Welfare Services Targeted for Family Support and Preservation Services, hearing, Subcommittee on Human Resources, Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives, April 21, 1993. pp. 87 - 88.

Balancing Diverging Interests, hearing, Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources Subcommittee on Children and Families Hearing on Child Protection, May 25, 1995, in which the "pernicious confusion of poverty with neglect" is discussed.

Testimony of Denise Kane, Inspector General, Illinois Department of Children and Family Services, State of Child Welfare Services, Hearing, Subcommittee on Human Resources of the Committee on Ways and Means, U.S. House of Representatives, June 21, 1993.

Little Hoover Commission, Report #115, For The Sake Of The Children: Restructuring Foster Care In California, April 9, 1992

Prepared statement of the Child Welfare League of America to the Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources, hearing on Reasonable Efforts, as appears in article posting "CWLA on Reasonable Efforts," on CASANet Internet Home Page. 1996.

Leroy Pelton, For Reasons of Poverty: A Critical Analysis Of The Public Child Welfare System In The United States, p. 67. See note 15.

Richard Wexler, Wounded Innocents: The Real Victims of the War Against Child Abuse, (Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1995) p. 211.

Programs and Services Designed to Prevent Unnecessary Foster Care Placement, Hearings before the Subcommittee of Human Resources of the Committee on Ways and Means, House of Representatives, May 22, 1989, Austin, Texas; June 5, 1989, Lindenhurst, New York.

Renny Golden, Disposable Children: America's Child Welfare System, (Belmont, Ca.: Wadsworth Publishing Company, 1997)

Second Circuit District Court of Appeal of Florida, Decision, In the Interest of S.D., a child, A.D., the natural father v. State of Florida, Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services, Case No. 95-02015, March 22, 1996

Assessment and Recommendations for Improving Child Abuse and Neglect Proceedings in Montana Courts, Montana Supreme Court, Office of the Court Administrator. December 1996. pp. 21 - 23.

Dana Mack, The Assault on Parenthood: How Our Culture Undermines the Family, (New York: Simon & Schuster, 1997

Additional Resources:
Child Welfare Institute - for 1994 study of Illinois foster care
Children's Defense Fund
Legal Assistance Foundation of Chicago - Diane Redleaf
National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect
Columbia University School of Social Work

[KristieMaureen]

Found this citation from Child Advocacy. Hoping to locate the actual study shortly.

Tuesday, September 30, 2003
Study: Children rushed into foster care system

LOS ANGELES -- Too many children have been unnecessarily placed in foster care because of a "perverse financial incentive" that encourages local governments to earn money by bringing youngsters into the system, a new state report says.

The study by the California Department of Social Services also says too much emphasis has been placed on investigating whether parents abused or neglected their children while not enough has been done to help families overcome their problems.

[KristieMaureen]

U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Child Maltreatment 2001.

December 2003 article citing figures for higher risk for child abuse/neglect IN the LA county foster care system.

[HappyMomAnna]

KristieMaureen:

Thanks for some of your references---I have looked at several however I still do not find info confirming that there are 165,000 childern in Foster care under wrongful removal or that 1/3 of the children are in Foster Care due to wrongful removal.....

Also---this is not what this thread was originally about.....so when I am done looking at all the citations you have offered to me I will continue my discussion on this topic under a new thread.....

[HappyMomAnna]

Emily K. Broggi


I have been thinking about your original question a lot the past two days.

I have a brother who is the father of three children--his wife ran off a few years ago--sick of living in poverty and being a mommy. My brother loves his children but all in all he is a big loser---children need more then his love---they need a decent home, clothes, and some kind of structure in their lives. My brothers children do not have a normal life......they spent four years in LosVegas living in one night hotel rooms while their mother was a stripper all night---in the summer they lived in the camp gounds...then they lived all five in my mothers garage for over 2-years.....until she ran out of savings and moved 1800 miles away....

It is really clear that eventually my brother is NOT going to be able to keep the children.......it really is this bad!

Come the time when the state is about to step in---What choices will my brother have? First he can let the state take the children and because of the ages they will most likely be seperated.... and he can then try hard to work with the state to get them back---which is doubtful because he does not like to work hard.....OR he could call me---and we could talk with an attorney and I could adopt the children--thus keeping them out of the state care and in the family.

I have heard of this happening many times especially with grandparents. I think many moms and dads faced with the choice of letting their children enter the Foster Care system or be adopted by family or someone they know would much rather see their children adopted...... rather then temporairy guests of a paid family....... If I were faced with such a horrible moment--I would rather my children have parents that adopt them---then a Foster Family where they may or may not stay.

I think a parent who makes the choice to have the children placed for adoption also has the chance to ask for certain things---like contact and openness.....whereas in Foster Care the parent has to follow the rules the caseworkers establishes. If my brother has me adopt his children--and then spends the next three years getting himself together---his children will still be here--and there is a real chance of reunification...... if the children are placed in Foster Care---under federal law the Sate can move in after 16-months and place his children for adoption---and seal the records---

I think many parents in a rough spot would rather make the decissions about where their children grow up---I think the choice to have a child placed for adoption is one these parents make at the hardest time in their lives......

[KristieMaureen]

HappyMomAnna,

If you'll check back to my original post on this thread, I specifically state that the statistics show 1/3 as the conservative estimate (30 or more percent is what you'll be looking for in the citations). I then applied that percentage to the approximate total number of children in foster care, listed in most references as around 500,000. My calculation, based on the information I found, is where the 165,000 estimate comes from. In particular, check the testimony from the California State representative before the federal subcommittee, as well as the Illinois citations. I've provided the references for where I found this data, as well as the other information I posted that was not personal experience.

I also stated, in that very first post, that this thread prompted me to research the original question - and I found these other interesting statistics related to foster care. I'm more than happy to carry the conversation to a new thread, but it was, in my opinion, rather condescending and inappropriate to pull out the "this is off topic" comment after 2 days of discussion in this thread. Perhaps next time, should you feel a post is off topic, you'll say so in the early stages of the conversation.

I'm sure it wasn't your intention to call my credibility into question with your comment about not finding the data in the few references you were able to check, but that's certainly how I read it. I never would have posted statistics without being able to back them up, and I'd appreciate the common courtesy of your not implying that they aren't accurate simply because you have not yet been able to verify them.

[HappyMomAnna]

originally written by: KristieMaureen

If you'll check back to my original post on this thread, I specifically state that the statistics show 1/3 as the conservative estimate (30 or more percent is what you'll be looking for in the citations). I then applied that percentage to the approximate total number of children in foster care, listed in most references as around 500,000. My calculation, based on the information I found, is where the 165,000 estimate comes from. In particular, check the testimony from the California State representative before the federal subcommittee, as well as the Illinois citations. I've provided the references for where I found this data, as well as the other information I posted that was not personal experience.

KristieMaureen: I am sorry if you feel I have called your credibility into question. However it is very irresponsible to spout statistics when they have not been scientifically formulated and are not properly documented. Much of your data comes prior to the 1997 Safe Families Act whereby many changes were made to the system, funding of the system, and reporting. There were many changes made in a broad number of areas in 1997--including the adoption subsidies, and foster family pay.

Also as a result of the 1997 laws most states initiated watchdogs--or advocates to be assigned to EACH and EVERY child in the system. In most states the moment a child is removed from a parent--an advocate is assigned to "WATCH the STATE." These advocates are NOT paid and are NOT part of the system and many are people who have been involved by adoption or as foster parents, some are lawyers, and others are elderly people who only care about the welfare of the children. In Oregon these people are called "CASA's" and NOTHING happens to a child in the system without the CASA being involved and a party to each and every action. These safeguards have been set up in many states just to prevent what you are upset about. I do not know if California or Illinois has established a watchdog system yet....

I discount any data or report you have prior to 1997 that was SIX years ago and there has been an AGGRESSIVE effort to remedy the exact issues you bring up. Most of the material you are using to base your opinion on is out of date and prior to the Safe Families Act and implementation of changes to the system that MANY OF US WORKED VERY HARD TO SEE HAPPEN. To berate the efforts some of us have been actively working on for 10-15 years by invalidating the progress we have made by using outdated info and applying it across the board to each state is really a SLAP in the FACE!

California and Illinois are states with two of the highest populations out of the 50 states. To assume that the statistics from these two states can be applied across the 50 states as you have done is a great error and inaccurate use of the research material you are using to validate your position.
A great deal of the references you have provided are part of one legislative report which is actually a 'critical' report on one specific issue. Your assumption that 165,000 children in foster care have been wrongfully removed counts the children in every state. While California and Illinois may have these problems Each State is different and Each State has their own criteria and issues to deal with......

Your statistics are NOT valid. For your stats to be acceptable your need to:

Find out exactly how many children were in Foster Care for the states you are citing---for the year of the report your citation mentions. Then you may do your 30% math on those states to come up with the number of children in those states during that year who were wrongfully removed....... Unless or until the numbers for EACH State on wrongful removals can be found for the same years---and unless your use the accurate overall number of Foster Children for each year you CANNOT apply the statistical assumption that you have.

Sorry but, this is why it is so difficult in our country to offer up exact and firm numbers for ANYTHING. Statistics are not about guessing and extrapolating the data----This is also why EACH State is responsible for their own Foster Care System--as many states have different rules and protocol and data is kept in different forms and meets different criteria. There is an ESTIMATED number of 500,000 children in Foster Care in the US and the government is very careful to be clear this is not a statically evaluated number. The National government would not ever offer a numbers like you have---it is irresponsible to do so and it is not appropriate to do so. You are using numbers from a few states---years ago and applying them to the total number of children estimated to be in Foster Care today?????

[KristieMaureen]

HappyMomAnna,

You are absolutely correct. The numbers I provided are not scientifically sound, based on older statistics applied to current population estimates.

From one of my earlier posts:
"I keep looking for data from somewhere in this decade that would suggest that the problems of misidentifying poverty as neglect are changing, but no luck so far. If anyone else has solid research/reports that suggest the tide is turning, please share them."

You mention ASFA again in your recent post as, saying this 1997 legislation was enacted to, in part, address the problem I'm concerned with. Can you point me to the portion of ASFA that discusses specific guidelines for removal of children, and any discussion of inappropriate removal in those documents? Or might you have other scientifically sound reports that are more recent so that I might be better educated?