[aspenhall]

I prefer to use the term "consequences". I am a mean mom and proud of it.... because I also get told I am the best mom in the whole world and out of the mouth of my child after a lot of outings I hear "THAT was the BEST thing of my WHOLE LIFE!!!!" I too have NEVER allowed a public display and many times I have left a cart full in a store and gone home and the next 10 trips I won't buy her anything and I always explain that it's because of that one time she misbehaved. She LOVES being "grown-up" and will do ANYTHING to get to eat at a "grown-up place". While most kids get all excited when they see a McDonalds, dd will simply freak when she sees an Applebees! LOL She can't even read yet!

We bought a book that helps it's the berenstein bears get a case of the gimmies (the galloping greedy gimmies). AND we watch Nanny 911 and Supernanny together and she can see what her misbehaving looks like and how awful it is. I also point out that by not minding me she is being "rude" and its the ultimate insult in her eyes.

I have let my dad spank her once while he was tending her (she tends to push boundaries extra hard while being babysat) everyone else has my disapproval if no consequence is given. Church teachers will place her in a time out in the hallway ( not following class rules = not allowed to be a part of the class) I tell people who will be in charge that her not getting in trouble for poor choices will only teach her that her poor choices are ok. I also tell them that rather than worrying that my dd won't like them they oughta be worried that *I* won't approve if they DON'T give her consequences.

[hopefully4]

I am chiming in, a day late and a dollar short as usual. I completely agree with spay and crick, if my children act out of control in public, we leave. Being out is a privelege and if they decide that they cannot respect that privelege, it is removed from them. Not always, beacause sometimes the cashier is checking you out at Target and your son says he wants a lollipop and you say no, and he screams, and you say, "man, it sounds like you don't want one next time either." and then ignore him while trying to finish paying as quickly as possible. But in restaurants, we have very low tolerance for misbehavior. I saw a girl this weekend running around the restaurant, while her parents ate their meal and ignored her. Excuse if I have ZERO sympathy as my husband and I had our three children, three and under, sitting quietly for the meal.

I like the sign on the street idea. Children need to know that parents can become very creative punishers in order to deter bad behavior. The child had many opportunities to act properly, is old enough to understand the proper way to behave, and perhaps will now think twice before misbehaving again. Pyschological abuse, my behind. It is far more detrimental to allow your child to not behave in school and make bad grades when she is clearly capable.

Not that I have an opinion or anything.
Katie

[redhedded]

I have slung her over my shoulder while holding hands of the boys and walked right out all the while getting the dirty looks of "you are abusing her!"

Crick, works like a charm. My strong willed easily riled daughter had exactly three tantrums in public; each time, I carried her out, kicking and screaming. I remember it well; the first was Gymboree (she was very young) for not sharing, the second was Target and the third a restaurant.

[leaabc123]

I am CC but grew up in a nyc housing project that was primarily AA. My mom was a single mom and had primarily AA friends and acquaintances. So, when she had kids, her "discilpine" techniques came from them and what she learned from her parents.

I believe my mother and her siblings were abused as children and they passed it on. Each of the siblings have had their own issues.

I won't get into specifics, but nothing was out of place for a beating. Everything from extension cords to broom handles. Emotional abuse consisted of constant threats of abandonment along with other things.

CPS was called several times but, let's just say at that time, their investigative skills were lacking.

That being said, there are few to no situations where spanking needs to be used. Even at almost 20 months, our little one can be spoken to and will sit in time-out for 2 minutes (with monitoring of course).

Obviously, as foster parents, we can not spank anyway. But, my personal view is that you can not use physical force on a child and then tell them that fighting, or hitting sibs and other children is wrong. I believe spanking teaches children that they can get what they want by using physical force.

[Curvyred]

I'm with Crick, I'd never allow anyone else to strike my child. But, if you see her doing something wrong, correct her.

I have a friend who is like this when we're around her little girl. We're not technically family, but we've been best friends forever and I"m an honorary "auntie." It's amazing how much better behaved her daughter was around me once she figured out that I would tell her to knock it off when she misbehaved! She smacked me in the face . . . ONCE . . . when she was sitting in my lap and I wasn't paying attention to her. The look on her face when I lifted her off my lap, set her on the floor, and told her that hitting was NOT acceptable was priceless. When her mom sent her to her room, she was calling "Auntie Jenn!" appealing to me to help get her out of the time-out and was just floored when I wouldn't talk to her. Hitting NEVER happened again when I was around.

My friend's sister, however, got pissy because I told her daughter (who was old enough to know better) that she could NOT dig through my purse.

I grew up getting the occassional spanking (CC family), but it was rare and always accompanied by a lecture. I had to go wait in my room FOREVER (maybe 10 minutes) to "think about what I'd done" and then I'd have to be able to articulate to my dad exactly why I was getting spanked. If I couldn't, then he would explain it to me and I would have to repeat it back to him. THEN he would tell me he loved me and was disappointed in me (at this point I'd be bawling) and FINALLY the spanking would happen. It was always very traumatic, and had little to do with the spanking itself. Hands and wooden spoons were the tools of choice. My mom was far more likely to give us a swat if we were misbehaving--dad got the official spanking duty.

DH (AA family, single mom most of his life), got beatings accompanied by verbal abuse. His mom once beat him because she saw marks on his legs from the last beating with a belt and asked where they came from. When he told her the marks were from when she beat him (he says you could see the stitching indentations from the belt) she beat him again for lying. There was a lot of verbal abuse, often accompanying the beatings.

Spanking the way my parents did it didn't leave me with any emotional scars though I think I just got better at not getting caught, so I'm not sure how effective the lesson was . I tend to think that DH turned out well DESPITE his mother's discipline style rather than because of it. I don't think we'll be spanking our kids--I don't think that DH could deal with it.

[aspenhall]

"But, my personal view is that you can not use physical force on a child and then tell them that fighting, or hitting sibs and other children is wrong. I believe spanking teaches children that they can get what they want by using physical force."

If this is leading by example, can the same argument be used for mature movies/tv shows? IMHO, Adults have rights that children simply do not. It is not ok for the child to have the right to impose consequences (of any kind) on anyone.... if THAT lesson is in place then there is no hypocrasy. You are lucky if a time out is an effective tool in EVERY scenario you've encountered. For a child who is resistant (defiantly) to naps/bedtimes.... a time out is simply winning that battle to stay up. Some children simply have a stronger will to defy and a time out doesn't even make a dent in their attitudes. Spankings shouldn't be liberal or accompany verbal abuse, but there are moments when they are necessary and effective.

[leaabc123]

No, our kids don't discipline each other. We do tell them to "use their words" when one hits the other or does something one doesn't like.

Time-outs or time-ins aren't always easy. Our little one has quite the stubborn streak but after much training, she understands that the more she gets up, the longer it will be.

[redhedded]

Aspen, This is a personal decision based on one's experiences and choices.

but there are moments when they are necessary and effective

I disagree with this entirely. I have an unusually intelligent child who is extremely strong willed and sensitive simultaneously. This approach would be neither necessary or effective with her.

[hopefully4]

While I don't think spanking is abusive, I rarely see it used effectively. At the grocery store, I have seen parents spank out of frustration and anger, which is not effective. To me, when I have seen parents spank, it is more a loss of their control than punishment. Granted, I think public spankings are probably not examples of parenting at its best. To me, I never want to use a spanking when it is appropriate. I like Love and Logic methods, but it's when I'm upset or impatient or frustrated that I have the desire to spank, and that is not when spanking should be used.

Katie

[Lexie]

For my own family I feel its important to teach by example. My son is very smart, strong willed and has a very strong sense of fairness. I would never have any credibility with him if I hit him and told him hitting is wrong. As I said on another thread on this topic, I would not hit a dog with a stick, my hand or a belt, so how coud I possibily consider hitting my child to teach and/ or discipline him.

It is definitely hard to discipline a strong willed child without hitting, but I also don't think hitting would teach my child anything positive.

The times when I would be inclined to spank are when he is not doing what I want, I am frustrated and he is mouthy. Those same times come up with my Dh ( sometimes my Dh can be a pain in the a...) and I manage not to hit him.

There are obviously many views on this, but I don't think there is ever a situation where the only effective alternative is hitting/spanking. JMHO

[echaos]

Originally Posted by Lexie

The times when I would be inclined to spank are when he is not doing what I want, I am frustrated and he is mouthy. Those same times come up with my Dh ( sometimes my Dh can be a pain in the a...) and I manage not to hit him.

I think for me this is the key to why I choose not to spank. I don't understand why it's okay to do to children, when it's not okay to do to adults. At what age do they cross over that invisible line? Some will say that it's when they reach certain levels of maturity or reasoning, but I know that I've worked with adults who have never reached these stages. And as much as I've been tempted, I've never spanked or hit one of them.

I was spanked once or twice as a child. My only memory of it is running down the hall towards my bedroom, crying, with my hands covering my bum. I would have been less then 5, as we were in our first house. Was it effective? was I scarred for life? I don't know if I have the answers to either.

[Sleeplvr]

What about when a child hits you? I know that with some of my friends, the worst spanking/beating/whipping they got was when they hit their parents. I have seen kids hit their parents out in public numerous times and they parents just laugh it off in embarrassment or try to downplay it. Now Johnny, we don’t hit. What? It's not okay for a child to feel that comfortable to hit a parent. When it happens in public I’ll bet that child does it a home too.

My first foster child used to hit me. If I could have hit him back...that would have been the time to teach him a lesson. He was not removed from a home put placed into state care by a well meaning relative. He had been in care since he was 2-3 months old and had been with the same foster family until he was 18 months old. Whenever he threw a major tantrum the first foster family would place him in his crib. The problem was he didn't know why he was placed there. We got him at 18 months old and he would punch, scream for 2 hours plus and kick you when you changed his diaper. He was very combative. I knew he was upset with the change but after a while I figured he used it to get his way. We had an extensive transition period and he was good as gold at first. After the honeymoon stage the real him came out. The foster family would let him have his way most of the time to avoid the tantrums. He was placed in the crib when he wanted to do something dangerous. I noticed when I visited their home their bio 7 year old had the same behavior. Our little guy learned all that bad behavior from her. The foster mom would always say something about her daughter having a meltdown. When you get to be 7 years old that’s not a meltdown, it’s manipulation to get your way. She did it because it worked. When kids are raised this way it makes it hard for them to handle structure. What could that lead to down the road? Some parents are too permissive.

[redhedded]

FWIW, I cringe when I see a child/baby hit a parent and the parent not respond. I do not believe that spanking a child who is hitting will be either successful or teach him anything. First, most children attempt, if even only once or a few times, to hit. It is normal development between the ages of 10-24 months. It is not learned but an innate response to a new awareness of self in a bigger world, frustration at loss of just being about self, new boundaries set by parents due to age and mobility, frustration at new need to communicate. I think how those first attempts at hitting are handled are critical. I see lots of kids who hit their parents; the problem is not that the parents do not spank them. It is that they have taken no strong guidance or disciplinarian role about this and usually other issues. They have laughed and let it go. They have not taken it seriously and allowed it to escalate. Some may have hit and said no hitting.

A young child can be sternly told no and hands held. For some that is all it takes; others will be harder. Some kids may laugh and keep doing it. A parent can put a child down, explain that hitting is not acceptable and walk away; at this young age, children want the interaction/affection from their parents. Providing love/affection/attention when the behavior is appropriate again or shortly after the infraction teaches that hitting means no attention/interaction. For some, much is nature and temperament, the lessons are easy and quick. For others, they take time. Consistency is the key. Sidenote: We had many kids come into residential placement who were chronic and severe hitters/spitters/biters. They were 3-10 years old. It was common for their parents to allow this at home because their children had moderate/severe Mental Retardation. A behavior program, catered to the individual child (positive reenforcement, loss of priviledges/interaction with staff, etc), administered with consistency worked every single time for every single child; some just took more work and time than others.

The foster family would let him have his way most of the time to avoid the tantrums.

Once this type of precedent has been set with a child, it takes very specific and consistent methods that do not involve hitting to teach appropriate interaction. Parenting is a hard and hands on job, and when boundaries are not set early, it is evident in every aspect of a young child's nature.

When you get to be 7 years old that’s not a meltdown, it’s manipulation to get your way

All children are really different. While this may be very different than our situation, my daughter is likely to be one of those 7 year olds having a meltdown (like having a teenager already ). Slamming doors and crying on the floor with grace, of course, may be a rite of passage. She won't do it in public but might in the safety and comfort of our home. She is a mature, loving, always gentle child, who at three, consistently exhibits excellent manners, calmness and nothing remotely related to being spoiled. She is very sensitive and has an adult brain in a three year old body. My goal is to allow her the freedom to be, which includes the occasional need to express tremendous frustration and anxiety, as she learns to process feelings, become aware of self/body, learns how to appropriately manage stress or change; disrespect and aggression will not be tolerated as part of her learning process. I do not consider it permissive but rather that she deserves the opportunity to be who she is while receiving my constant guidance/boundaries, unconditional love and support.

[leaabc123]

Our 20 month old is going through a hitting/ pinching stage right now.

When she hits anyone, us or her sister or someone else, she gets a big "NO, hitting is not nice" and put into an immediate time-out. Then attention is paid to the "victim" while she is mostly ignored, except to make sure she is still doing her time-out.

After her time-out is over, she is made to apologize to the other person. She still can't say "I'm sorry" but can give a hug or a kiss. We also talk about being nice.

We did the same thing whe she started experimenting with biting and it stopped almost immediately. Spanking would just show her that she can keep doing what she is doing.

If we just let her "have her way", she could very easily get to the point of severe escalation, as could her sister. And sometimes, as tired as I get these days, it would be the easy route to take (at least in the short-term).

[Kelli]

Wow, I've been away from here for a day and am just catching up with this thread. Thank you again to everyone for sharing your thoughts. Just a few questions of my own as it relates to a quote in my OP -

. . .a general article with differing opinions but in it a Duke researcher made reference to her findings that showed a cultural difference on the issue. She stated that her study showed that white children who were spanked demonstrated more aggressive behavior as young teens, but black children exhibited fewer problems. She believes her research “makes an important point about the power of a cultural community.

I'm really curious . . .for those of you who have discounted the effectiveness of an occasional spanking (without every having done it yourself) along with other forms of discipline, (including time-outs, redirection, etc.) is it your belief that this statement is inaccurate as it pertains to black children, aggressive behavior, and the power of a cultural community? If so, why? I ask because I've read here repeatedly that "spanking teaches kids to hit" but quite frankly I personally have not known that to be the case in my circle and family, and for many other AA families, as well. I don't believe there is a "one size fits all" method of parenting, but I'm gathering that some of you believe differently. I would tell my parents who raised four college graduates, professional and civic-minded children that they apparently got it all wrong based on what some of you here have said, but I'm afraid I'll hear "you're not too old for a spanking" . . . and actually get one.

Kelli