[kllee4]

In terms of what I know about our history, we have had a geneologist research this and he is actually compiling the information in a bound book for the family, but I know that the major issue was that they were supposedly left a portion of land in the will but the promise was never made good on since it was drawn up while they were slaves and their claim to it later was denied. Parts of the family was split up and many were sent to family members. Some have been proven to have been parented by extended family members (a brother, an uncle, etc.) and, then some have a lineage with another line. They also found that they had a major hand in helping to build Mount Vernon and a large portion still live in the area to this day.

I apologize if I insinuated that HE began the lineage.

[spaypets]

How cool it will be to have that book!

[LisaCA]

lisa in venice said it beautifully: it's about talking to someone in a shorthand sort of way, and knowing they can fill in the blanks. It's like talking to your girlfriends vs talking to your guy friends about how women feel about not being called back, going to the gynecologist or something. Some guys can get it instantly and you don't have to lay the groundwork, others need to be led through the info and will get it eventually, while others are just clueless and no amount of whacking them on the head will get them to understand. I don't know where a person may stand in relationship to the discussion I want to have, I just know I don't want to have to lead them through the groundwork in the hopes that they get there. Sometimes (to be honest most of the time) I just want to b@#*$ and have someone's support.

I dated many a guy (okay, not that many ) from a number of different backgrounds (some of the more interesting: one from guam, the other a white guy from alabama-yeah, his parents were thrilled ) but I knew that I'd want to marry a black guy, just for this reason. Knowing my personality (and this is the key thing here), I really need to come home to someone who gets it instantly. for dh, he does about the race stuff, a bit clueless on the gender stuff (even after 22 years) but you can't pick your sexual preference . I was lucky to find dh because he comes from a similar background: lots of genetic mixing across racial/ethnic lines so he knows the fun of having people not understand "what" you are, plus he knows the fun of being the only "gifted" black person in the classroom (can never be absent, must overachieve to be seen as achieving, etc). That common experience has been quite helpful for me: I get much more upset about things, but he doesn't , and can talk me down from a rant (I call him my human valium ). If he didn't have that experience, I'd probably resent his attempts to calm me down. (This is not to say or imply that marrying across "racial" lines is wrong, since that's what all my family members have done since the beginning of time. I'm just saying given my particular temperment, dh is what I needed.)

[Lexie]

This is such an interesting thread and deals with an issue that we have been grapppling with ourselves. Since we have a bio son already, then the issue between them is an issue in the AA community. If we go by percentage, my son is 1/4 AA. Of course as far as I am concerned he is Black like me ( I am 1/2 Asian really---think Tiger Woods---close enough). My dh is CA, and DS is like Mariah Carey with Asian eyes ( except, a lot better looking if I say so myself). The matching thing matters a bit to us. We would like for our family to not appear obviously that only one child is adopted. In my family my sister was adopted. It was obvious---my two brothers and I look exactly alike. But my sister is much lighter with green eyes, so that was fine for her (although she always spent a lot of time trying to get a tan). I have two neices that are adopted. One is Hispanic/AA and is olive skinned with " good hair", the other is AA and very dark skinned with short kinky hair. Everyone talks about the mixed neice. I am sure it will be an issue between them as they grow up because everyone----and I mean everyone----talks about how gorgeous the mixed one is ( people often assume she is bio and the other neice is adopted).

I am not sure what to do about it. when I see every drop of blood detailed on some of the adoption websites---I cringe. On the other hand---it is an issue--

Its sad that my mother's generation would have the same concerns and all these years later--we have not progressed that far on this issue.

Yes--I also have the agree with the comments that this is not a topic that is often talked about outside of the AA community.
The struggle goes on...........

Lexie

[Linny]

I'll just add this:

Our first child was born in Korea. We lived overseas at the time and throughout when we felt we wanted to have another baby. There was only one agency, and when we had our interview, the cw stated, "Now! You'll want to have a CC baby, right?"
We stated, "No."
They were shocked and said we'd have to wait for some time before finding another baby---longer than dh's orders to be stationed there.
Through perserverence (sp?)....we found our next baby (before our time was up)......who was also Asian, and the agency conducted the adoption.

Our feeling was to have more than one child in the family who was of the same race (we are that 'seemingly CC couple').

When we returned to infant adoption again....we preferred AA babies. Our first wee one was very dark. Upon being offered the next baby...we specified that we wanted an AA baby. A little one was presented to us; and when we went to see him (still in the hospital...born premie, etc...but 'free for adoption') , his coloring was incredibly fair---to the point that dh and I actually asked, 'Are you sure this is the right baby?'
(And yes, we were familiar with AA newborns,etc.)
The cw was beyond shocked when we decided not to adopt him. One of the reasons was due to the fact that he was incredibly CC looking (features and all)......and we thought it would be unfair to our other daughter to have such a CC looking sib.(At the time, she was the only AA child in our home.) (There were also other reasons, but this was one....)

Say what you want.......but we felt strangely about this....but that it truly was in the best interest of our daughter. One of the nurses stated that 'the fact he (the baby) looks so CC, will help him throughout life...and you (meaning dh and I) feeling as we did, would probably be the ONLY time his (the baby) complexion 'worked against him'.

Be that as it may.......the next baby we adopted turned out to be lighter in complexion, but had definate AA features and hair. (And no, we didn't 'see' her before bringing her home....)

It took at lot of soul-searching to ask of ourselves if we were being 'racist' in our choices. But, I suppose we were---only to the extent that we felt it unfair to our existing daughter.

In reference to agencies that allow bi-racial babies over AA babies......there are a few that state you must be able to accept a 'full' AA baby, if wanting a bi-racial baby. This makes sense to me.
And....as far as this little boy? He was quickly adopted by another couple (that day).

Sincerely,

Linny

[kllee4]

Linny,

As an AA woman, your choice of adopting a second AA child based on skin color is parallel to friends of mine who unconsciously (most) or consciously (a select few who have admitted it) choose men/women to date based on the shade of their skin. I say unconsciously because I do have friends who are "color struck" but who refuse to admit it. While as close friends we may have a range of discussions from laughing it off to having deep, reflective conversations that include experiences we may have had or that have affected us and how those may have shaped how we feel about our own skin color, the skin color of others, and the skin color of children we have or will have.

I have a close girlfriend, who I have mentioned before who steers clear of "light- skinned" woman in close friendships (we still laugh on how I made it in her group but she always remarks that I am "different") but when I bring up her son's skin and eye color (he is a carmel color with grey eyes), she always remarks that there was something "different" about his dad that draw her to him and that he was the first and only guy with a lighter skinned complexion that she ever dated seriously. I wonder if, on many levels, she unconsciously chose his dad (who is now deceased) to have a child with (since from our conversations she could have decided to have children with other brown-skinned men). And how did I become her friend? In looking back, I think I purposely pushed myself on her. I made it a point to always be her friend (genuinely), to show her that I cared, that I had deep hurts, too, even though I closer to the other end of the spectrum on skin color. I compliment her often, call her out when I feel she is being unfair or shallow, etc. All the things that a "true" friend would do because I wanted her to see that no matter what a person's skin color (or tone) that there are genuine people and there are jerks. While she has let me in to her circle (and I'm not all the way in on some occasions ), she is still wary due to deep hurts in her past.

My point is that we all carry feelings about color and race, whether we admit them or not. And there are times when I have to educate within my own circle of close AA friends. They get most of it on one level but can't let go of old hurts on another. It's sad that even 400 years later after the beginning of slavery, colorism is something we still have to think about (and discuss). Mr. Lynch's prophesy is still as alive and strong today as he predicted it.

[chanibelle]

Not really posting a deep thought here, maybe later. When I was born on my birth certificate it says "albino" anyone and I mean anyone who knows me and has eyes can tell Im NOT an albino. I do have red hair and hazel eyes and I'm AA. Redbone, high yella lol whatever. Makes no difference to me what Im called. At the end of the day Im still AA.

[LisaCA]

I had to laugh at your birth certificate. dd's medical records all have her listed as "baby boy" over and over again . even the doc signed off on this. what a giggle.

my older sister's birth certificate has her listed as
"coloured" being born in the bahamas, where they made a distinction between white, black and that lovely "coloured" category.

one of my favorite race based stories is the way south africa under apartheid handled everything: very bureaucratic govt, with a special race board, who assigned and changed races. People could go before them and petition to have their race changed, so you'd end up with one family's offspring having many races listed, even though the kids all have the same dad and mom. at the end of the year they'd list how many changed from white to coloured, coloured to black, black to coloured, coloured to white, etc. what a riot. It had major ramifications dealing with whom you could marry, where you could live, types of jobs offered, etc so it was serious, but really, how can you sit on a board like this and take it seriously?

finally, I have to say my husband's company has him listed as "white"-duh. They haven't changed it even though he's tried to correct them. we can't decide if changing it would have any economic impact, good or bad .

[Sleeplvr]

Did you ever hear of some of the tests used to determine what race you were in South Africa? One of the ways to go from black to coloured was the pencil test. If they put a pencil in your hair and it fell out you were considered coloured. If the pencil stayed in you were black.

My first foster child had his race listed as white on his birth certificate. His mom was white so the hospital automatically assigned the baby's race the same. This little boy was darker than Dh and I. When I read his file I saw where DFCS went and crossed out white on all their documents and changed them to black.

[Jensboys]

I cannot tell you how much this discussion has fascinated me today. Thank you for the insightful and deep discussion.

I had a very interesting discussion with the Psychologist that attended our adoption camp for families parenting children of African Heritage (eg. Any black child of whatever descent). He said essentially the same thing -- that as a cc mom of aa kids, I do very well by picking up on some of the nuances of racism, underlying prejudice and issues our kids will face but the reality is --- I will never completely get it all.

Again, thanks for a thoughtful and thought envoking discussion.

[BethanyB]

Both sides of our family are rather light skinned (way more whites in the family tree than we're comfortable acknowledging )

Why wouldn't you feel comfortable admitting that?

now dd's bfamily looks like our family-what's it like for the next child, who may not look like our family and will really stand out? This is a bit different than a white family adopting a child of color for many reasons which I won't go into here.

Maybe when or if you feel like going into this, I would love to hear why it's different than a white family adopting a child of color.

Basically I understand your situation. You don't want your family or friends or even strangers to treat your light skinned child better than a child with darker skin.

I worry about the same thing in adopting child number two. I'm white. My son turned out to look biracial or at LEAST very light skinned with "good hair." Everyone thinks he is my bio child. I am single and so therefore people think that my boyfriend is black. I know that I would not want to adopt a white child now that I have a black son. I would not want people (family) to favor a white child. Giving him or her all of the attention.

Then, I also have begun to think about skin color. I too understand that black people also have issues with color. I worked in an all black school for a year and the kids were always cracking jokes and getting into fights about color. In the urban area that I taught, being really light skinned was not good because people may think you have white in you. Being really black was also not good because they see it as unattractive. Everyday I heard, "Your so black...(fill in the blank)" Or "Your so white..."

THEN I also began to wonder about what my second child will look like in terms of attractivness. My son is GORGEOUS! He has huge grey eyes and LONG eyelashes. We get stopped all the time when we are out. I worry that my second child will not be as good looking. And I know it sounds dumb, but I don't worry for me, but for the child.

Now here is my conclusion...
Even if I had a bio child, I would be risking one being attractive and one not. My sister has always been the thin, really attractive one. I'm the only child in the family with brown eyes. Everyone else has blonde hair and blue eyes in my family. I'm very tall, and my sister is very short. I have a thin nose and she doesn't.
It's life. It happens.

As far as skin color goes, I know that I will only adopt AA children now that I have my son. I know that I can't pick skin color (not only because it's not the right thing to do) but because it's not even reliable. First, you have to wait for a pbmom to pick you. Then what would you do? Check out her skin color and then ask her what skin color the pbdad has? And what if she is wrong about who the father is? Or what if his family is very dark and the child turns out to be very dark? What if the child is light skinned at birth and turns darker after several months? I could keep going on and on with possiblities. It all comes down to the fact that there are no guarentees.

So when I decide to go for a second child, I think I am just going to ask for AA or biracial AA. And what I get is what I get. People may know that the child is adopted. And that is fine. Although it's not a secret, I love not having to explain that my child is adopted when we go out since people think he's my bio child. If I have to the next time than that is fine. I will learn to deal with it.

I just want to add one more thing...
Nomatter what color we are, we all go through our own experiences. Many of us may not have had to deal with racism personally but have gone through problems so large that they didn't think they would ever make it through. Many of us know what it feels like to be unaccepted, hurt, attacked and emotionally at wits end. It may be because of something you yourself have not gone through, but it doesn't make it any less painful. We should not try to make small of other people's trials and tribulations just because we think ours are bigger or more important. People may understand your situation more than you think, even though they have not been through the exact same thing. -Just thought it was important to add that!

[Sleeplvr]

Originally Posted by LisaCA

Both sides of our family are rather light skinned (way more whites in the family tree than we're comfortable acknowledging ), now dd's bfamily looks like our family-what's it like for the next child, who may not look like our family and will really stand out? lisa

Originally Posted by BethanyB

Why wouldn't you feel comfortable admitting that?

Maybe when or if you feel like going into this, I would love to hear why it's different than a white family adopting a child of color.

Basically I understand your situation. You don't want your family or friends or even strangers to treat your light skinned child better than a child with darker skin.

Lisa, I don’t know if you family is like mine but how the white got into the family makes a difference in whether they were/are recognized. If it came by the slave and master route… it is not recognized. Why should we recognize anyone that didn’t recognize us? If it came by marriage then it is recognized. My paternal great-grandfather married a black woman back in the 1800’s in Tennessee of all places. If I could go back in time and meet him….. Even though they seemed to be really progressive, that side of my family is really dysfunctional along the color line. Money played a rather ugly part in how things were decided. Some relatives were cut out of the will or disowned if they married someone dark. Some even made to the decision to pass for white. I think we need to track them down just for a reality check.

How many white people do you know that will admit that they have black people in their family through slavery?

There is a difference when an AA adopts a child compared to when a CC person adopts an AA child. You are looked at as doing an honorable thing. We are looked at as doing a job to help clean up our community. When you adopt an AA child most of the time it is obvious (to other white people) that you did not give birth to that child. When AA people adopt you are never quite sure. Adoption agencies have been very good about matching AA skin colors so AA adoptions are virtually invisible. But if there is a drastic color difference it leads to questions. There is a stereotype about AA women that says we have lots of kids by different fathers. So if we adopt a child that doesn’t match us….would we be accused of sleeping around before adoption is considered. DH's family as well as some of our older friends are very concerned about this. They don’t want there to be a hint that our values could appear to be compromised. I know one time we went out to a restaurant for a family birthday celebration and my 16 year old niece was holding her infant cousin. My mother-in-law made her give the baby back to her mother because she didn’t want anyone to think that she had a baby.

We have to adhere to a higher standard just because it is generally accepted that we live our lives on a lower one.

[lisa in venice]

Originally Posted by Sleeplvr

Lisa, I don’t know if you family is like mine but how the white got into the family makes a difference in whether they were/are recognized. If it came by the slave and master route… it is not recognized. Why should we recognize anyone that didn’t recognize us?

You know that is exactly how it is in my family. Most of the the "race mixing" happened during slavery or in the years just following it. When I ask who these men were (my great-great grand fathers) I was always told not to talk about it. Of my 8 great grand parents 3 were biracial and three had at least one biracial parent. While they never acknowledged it they certainly maintained the color. Now some of that was more socio-economic in that people of a certain color tended to to be middle class and well educated so the color cast system only reinforced itself

Originally Posted by Sleeplvr

How many white people do you know that will admit that they have black people in their family through slavery?

Funny you should ask this now. Our youngest ds' birth mom is abut a blonde as you can get called recently to announce that one of her great-great-great grand fathers was an emanicpated slave. She and her family were thrilled with this news but I suspect that they are the exception.

Originally Posted by Sleeplvr

Adoption agencies have been very good about matching AA skin colors so AA adoptions are virtually invisible.

I know this happened in our first two adoptions. We had no say in the matches and were matched by agency personel. With the third part of the reason the birth family picked us was my resemblance to the birth father. That is part of why it became an issue in our fourth adoption. With three kids who looked like we COULD have made them I worried about that last little one who would not look like us.[/quote]

Originally Posted by Sleeplvr

But if there is a drastic color difference it leads to questions. There is a stereotype about AA women that says we have lots of kids by different fathers. So if we adopt a child that doesn’t match us….would we be accused of sleeping around before adoption is considered. DH's family as well as some of our older friends are very concerned about this. They don’t want there to be a hint that our values could appear to be compromised. I know one time we went out to a restaurant for a family birthday celebration and my 16 year old niece was holding her infant cousin. My mother-in-law made her give the baby back to her mother because she didn’t want anyone to think that she had a baby.

We have to adhere to a higher standard just because it is generally accepted that we live our lives on a lower one.

That is not something that I was thinking about but it has been a factor in my life. Always having to be better dressed and better behaved and a better student because I was representing my race. It still is just a little more complecated for AA people.

lisa

[Sleeplvr]

Originally Posted by lisa in venice

While they never acknowledged it they certainly maintained the color. Now some of that was more socio-economic in that people of a certain color tended to be middle class and well educated so the color cast system only reinforced itself

You’re right about socio-economic status and skin color is linked. AA people have a better understanding of why the wealthier and educated AA families tend to have light skin. I don’t think the general population understands how this whole system worked. Some of the white fathers made sure their black children were educated or supported financially even though they couldn’t publicly acknowledge them. Most historically black colleges back in the day were full of these children. When we looked through my mother’s college yearbooks she pointed out who was there because of their white father’s generosity. Look how long Strom Thurmond’s daughter kept the secret. Personally I don’t know how she held it all these years. Maybe that’s why he lived so long, maybe he was hoping he would outlive her and the secret. I worked in his hometown of Aiken and it was no secret there. Everyone knew. It’s weird how something could be common knowledge but still a secret.

Originally Posted by lisa in venice

Funny you should ask this now. Our youngest ds' birth mom is about as blonde as you can get called recently to announce that one of her great-great-great grand fathers was an emancipated slave. She and her family were thrilled with this news but I suspect that they are the exception.

You're right they are the exception. Most people who have changed their race to white would never admit to having any black ancestry. Have you read the book The Sweeter the Juice: A Family Memoir in Black and White by Shirlee Taylor Haizlip. The authors mother was abandoned by her family when they decided to pass for white. She made a promise to find her mother’s “missing” or “lost” siblings.

I have a CC co-worker that did her genealogy to find any minority ancestors so she could qualify for some scholarships for college. Her family had gone way out of their way to suppress their Native American heritage but decided to dredge it up when it was of benefit to them. Fortunately her percentage didn’t add up to the required amount. I don’t think it’s fair to those people who lived theirs lives and suffered the oppression to suddenly have people returning to just take advantage of the opportunities that are available now. In a former job I was in government contracting. You would not believe the lengths some people went to utilize their newfound/ re-discovered minority status yet they only reserve its use for business purposes.

It’s one thing to research your genealogy to just discover your family history. It’s another to do it just strictly for financial gain.

[lisa in venice]

Originally Posted by Sleeplvr

You’re right about socio-economic status and skin color is linked. AA people have a better understanding of why the wealthier and educated AA families tend to have light skin. I don’t think the general population understands how this whole system worked. Some of the white fathers made sure their black children were educated or supported financially even though they couldn’t publicly acknowledge them. Most historically black colleges back in the day were full of these children. When we looked through my mother’s college yearbooks she pointed out who was there because of their white father’s generosity. Look how long Strom Thurmond’s daughter kept the secret. Personally I don’t know how she held it all these years. Maybe that’s why he lived so long, maybe he was hoping he would outlive her and the secret. I worked in his hometown of Aiken and it was no secret there. Everyone knew. It’s weird how something could be common knowledge but still a secret.

My great-great grand mother was a "kept" women. The wealthy landowner and prominent citizen who fathered several of her children. She only demamded two things of him: Whenever a parcel of land ajacent to hers became available she made him buy it for herfor her sons and he educaated all of her daughters. Only two of whom were actually his. She was by all accounts one tough cookie. My dd is named for her and her eldest dd.

lisa