[LisaCA]

I think while there are racial/color prejudices within each race, it's not comparable across races, imo. I can't presume to know the fine points of what it's like to grow up brunette or redheaded in a pro-blonde world (though having grown up black in So. Cal I do know what it's like to have the blonde blue eyed thing crammed down your throat), I can say that ultimately you knew you were at the top of the hierarchy. As a white person critiqued by white people is less damaging because the larger society isn't also critiquing your looks, your academic abilities, your job potential, your history, etc. While some blacks may privilege light skin, we accept all as black (which is why we are all colors). Based on the US traditional "one drop rule" (created by whites in the 17th and 18th centuries, all it took was one drop of black blood to make you black), any 'drop' of black makes you so in the eyes of most african americans.

The so-called "biracial" category deserves its own thread so I'll leave that one alone for now, except to say that most blacks do not accept this category. For many years now the larger society has been trying to measure the black portion of each person and thus privilege those with less. In this line of thinking, embracing the mixed race/biracial category becomes problematic for all of african descent since it seems to validate terms outmoded terms such as "quadroon".

And since there are so few formal black adoptive parents, I hate the added color calculation that black birthparents may feel they have to do.

I guess I just don't equate the issues of transracial adoption with the issues of aa/possibly viewed as trans-skin color adoption. I think both are very complex and very different beasts.

[MMC66]

Discrimination against those with AA "blood" is SO real. I gotta agree with Lisa on this one, biracial, tri-racial, whatever, if you look the slightest bit black, you'll feel it and it's nothing like being short, fat, ugly, brunette or anything the like. I can speak to how African Americans are discriminated against in healthcare, both from anecdotal experience as a nurse and from "crunching the numbers" as a grad student and as a health care administrator. It is unbelievable. I'm not black so I can't say I know what it feels like first hand but it can be scary as hell for a black person to go to an ER or to a health care provider and wonder if his life may ve worth a little less to that provider simply because they are black.

This isn't just true if the provider is white, it has been demonstrated by black providers as well - possibly due to the socioeconomic differences between a black doctor and his black patients and resentment that can occur due to black stereotypes.

This may not be the thread for this but sometimes I can't keep my mouth shut. You can give your AA baby all the love in the world and it won't change the ugliness that she will inevitably face sooner or later when she walks out your door. I pray every day I can equip my little girl to deflect what she will face and not let it affect how she feels about herself.

Martha

[Robbye]

I’ve been discussing this issue with my friend girl who has 2 adopted little boys. Her oldest is 2 ½ . He has sandy brown hair and gray eyes. His coloring is on the lines of Mariah Carey. His heritage is AA/Filipino/CC. Her youngest just turned a year old. His heritage is AA. He has black hair and beautiful brown eyes. His coloring is on the lines of Wesley Snipes. Her and her DH are tan brown.

They do not resemble either one of their children in the least bit. When approached in public people assume the infant is theirs and asks whom does the toddler belong to. The infant is ignored and the toddler is ooh’ed and ahh’ed over his features.

She says it drives them nuts. So here is a living breathing example of someone trying to make a difference in color conscience world.

What do you do? As an AA in our society today --- can you really ask an agency for “light-skinned” only? If we don’t try to make a difference at this level will there ever be difference made?

[spaypets]

First, do I get points (as a white girl) for knowing instantly what the title of this thread referred to?

Second, this is a fascinating discussion, particularly in light of the following story my husband sent (I believe it's from the Philadelphia Inquirer:

>Skin bias sets tone for sales blitz
>Bleaching creams and skin-sloughing treatment are big business in
>India. By Mike McPhate For The Inquirer
>
>NEW DELHI, India - The young woman, with pretty eyes and flawless
>diction, aspires to celebrity. But her skin is too brown. One day her
>sister hands her a tube of Fair and Lovely skin cream.
>
>Flash forward.
>
>She's decked out in heels and a pink sari, her hair is styled in
>willowy curls, and her complexion is pale, nearly as white as her
>smile. She lands her dream job as a cricket commentator. Mom wipes a
>joyful tear.
>
>The storylines of television ads like this one, packaged by turn in
>themes of love and career, have helped propel a blossoming market for
>skin whiteners in southern Asia. It exploits a deeply rooted bias here:
>to the Indian gaze, dark skin is ugly.
>
>"Racism has become a part of the Indian psyche," Pavan Varma, author of
>Being Indian: The Truth About Why the Twenty-First Century Will Be
>India's, said via e-mail. "The real irony is that a brown nation looks
>down on the dark."
>
>India, home to one-sixth of humanity and the birthplace of four major
>religions, is a country bursting with variety. Inhabitants speak more
>than 1,500 languages and dialects and align with as many as 772
>registered political parties. The nation is made up largely of sunny
>tropics and deserts. Most of its people range in skin tone from tan to
>dark brown.
>
>The sirens of Indian cinema and fashion, though, as across much of
>Asia, are with few exceptions tall, slender and honey-hued. It's the
>skin color of Aishwarya Rai, the green-eyed former Miss World and
>paragon of Indian beauty, but it's possessed by a small fraction of the
>general population.
>
>Each Sunday, the fair ideal is put on display in un-romantic marriage
>ads that fill a large part of many Indian newspapers. Alongside
>requirements for slim bodies and expertise in household work, suitors
>request skin tones within the narrow range of "fair" to "extremely
>fair."
>
>The fetish for light skin persists even among Indian immigrants to
>North America. A study in the Journal of Social Psychology found that
>among South Asian-Canadian women, those with the lightest skin felt the
>prettiest.
>
>"They believe they are like an onion - that the inner part is much more
>shiny bright," says New Delhi dermatologist Rishi Parashar, who often
>sees patients arrive with rashes after applying bleach to their skin.
>"These people will never be happy."
>
>Indian anthropologists say the preference is ancient, carved into the
>culture by waves of light-skinned invaders, most recently the British,
>that left natives with the stubborn notion that they were inferior. The
>complex spans both city and village, and afflicts both sexes. One study
>found men make up a quarter of fairness-cream users.
>
>"The term for English was gora," says R.P. Mitra, an anthropology
>lecturer at Delhi University, referring to the Hindi-language word for
>white. "Gora was seen as someone who is superior, more knowledgeable,
>with strength, power, cunning."
>
>Women have invented a variety of tone-battling techniques. In the
>summer, they shield themselves with scarves, gloves and big-brimmed
>hats. They soak their bodies in combinations of milk, honey, lemon,
>cucumber and almond juice, eating the same during pregnancy with the
>hope of producing pearly-complexioned children.
>
>In the last 14 years, though, with the rise of India's economy and
>birth of a 300 million-strong middle class, an appetite has risen for
>more modern strategies. Young, urban women, whether poring over the
>top-selling fashion magazine Elle or tuning in to Friends and Ally
>McBeal, have become intoxicated with Western glamour.
>
>Companies, including Avon, Estée Lauder, and Revlon, have responded
>with an armory of skin-lightening products, commonly containing
>bleaching agents such as hydroquinone and Kojic acid. In just the last
>five years, the market for such creams grew by about two-thirds, to
>more than $230 million.
>
>Ashok Venkatramani, spokesman for the leading brand, Fair and Lovely,
>which is made by Hindustan Lever Ltd., said in a statement that the
>company does not promote fair skin. Women's desire for lighter skin is
>equivalent to a desire for different hair color, he said. "This we feel
>is completely a matter of personal choice," he said.
>
>The cricket-commentator ad, Venkatramani said, "does not condemn a
>woman who is not fair. It simply delivers the message that it is
>possible to change one's outlook towards life."
>
>Business at more than 60,000 beauty salons across India, where
>cosmetologists wield acids and tiny sandblasters to sear away the
>color-rich outer layer of skin, is roaring, proprietors say. A study
>last year found the $400 million industry clocking as much as 25
>percent growth in the number of salons.
>
>"There's always a need to make people beautiful," says Amarjit Guliar,
>proprietor of the White Orchid Beauty Parlor, tucked along a clamoring
>commercial strip in southern New Delhi.
>
>"It's not that she should be very fair - like British color," she says.
>"It's the whole personality that matters."
>
>Geetanjali Kumar, a regular customer at another salon, where a cool,
>peach-walled lobby displays four posters of Nordic-looking models,
>praised her dermatologist for giving her skin that "glows."
>
>"Dr. Azad is a person who I'll consider next to God," she said in a
>feedback form.
>
>The fair-skin juggernaut has inspired some resistance in recent years.
>The portrayal of white privilege in Fair and Lovely ads prompted outcry
>from women's groups and intellectuals. Modeling agencies point to the
>success of dark-skinned Indian model Ujjwala Raut, though her skin is
>often saturated by bright bulbs for photo shoots. And new, edgier films
>have begun employing darker actors in leading roles.
>
>Although most urban women appear to be diving headlong into the new
>beauty culture, others have interpreted their new independence -
>increasingly as salaried college graduates - in feminist terms.
>
>Radhika Basu, a mahogany-brown graduate student at the Indian Institute
>of Management, says she feels little pressure to whiten her skin.
>
>On a recent afternoon at an upscale New Delhi coffee bar, Basu, 24, sat
>in a corner reading The Da Vinci Code over iced coffee. Images of
>buxom, light-skinned women flashed on a screen tuned to Indian MTV. A
>caramel-toned teenage couple adored each other at a nearby table. The
>young man, Akhil Sachar, says he feels "blessed" by his complexion.
>
>Basu says friends used to tease her about her skin, "grandmothers,
>too."
>
>The taunts would hurt her feelings. But no more, she says. With her
>education and "because of the kind of person I am," she says she feels
>comfortable in her skin.
>
>"I am single, and if I went in for arranged marriage, I may come across
>people who would prefer a fair bride," she says. "But then I'd hate to
>marry into such a family anyway."

My DD is from India, and is very dark skinned (the color of fudge). I've found it really interesting how many (white) people are enthralled by her skin (her eyes, which are black and sparkle, her hair, which is shiny and ebony, also get a lot of remarks).

I suspect, although I have no proof, that one of the reasons my absolutely healthy, beautiful, coordinated daughter wasn't chosen for adoption by a family in India was because she is darker than the fashion. I find it terribly sad that the very characteristics that so many people here find lovely, are considered unattractive in the country of her birth.

[LisaCA]

spaypets, yep, wherever europeans went, they left behind this legacy. One of my former students was born in India and is very dark skinned. apparently that's one reason why she believes she was placed for adoption by her bfamily (as well as her gender).

and come the revolution, you get an honorary brown person card, worth its weight in gold .

Robbye, that's exactly the situation that I'd like to avoid. I do not want, however, to ask for or necessarily adopt only light skinned kids -what a horrific thought. And if light skinned birthparents are the only ones placed with us, then what about those darkskinned bparents? since there are fewer aa aparents in general, it could limit the options for other aaparents (particularly if agencies are somehow involved in restricting the showing of profiles).

and imagine what that infant's life will be like, with everyone raving over his brother's features, coloring, etc. While I'd like to make a difference, is that infant's psyche worth the sacrifice? I guess I'll just have to get snippy around people if they rave about one and not the other (like I do when people assume I have my husband's last name-poor telemarketers ). How does your friend react? any snippy comments would be appreciated! my guess is that the professor in me would come out and I'd say something like "while I appreciate your complements about my daughter, we're trying to raise kids who value all features and skin tones."The comment will then fly above their heads and disappear, leaving them blissfully ignorant.

[Sleeplvr]

Originally Posted by Robbye

What do you do? As an AA in our society today --- can you really ask an agency for “light-skinned” only? If we don’t try to make a difference at this level will there ever be difference made?

Isn't that what they are allowing by letting people choose biracial? I think that is the new code word for light skinned. I think agencies as a rule should not give people an option. If you are willing to take a 1/2 AA child you should take a full AA child. I think a lot of non AA people are misinformed about skin color in the AA community. AA skin color & features are not necessarily the same as African skin color & features. When adopting AA child, you could end up with a child that has your facial features but not your skin color. AA social workers are really good at discerning matching features. So for a child to look like you doesn't necessarily mean they have the same skin tone.

We were offered a 5 year old girl a few months back from the foster care system. We turned down the situation due to her age; she still wasn’t legally free after being in the system for 5 years as well as possibly having undiagnosed ADHD. She was very dark, a Hershey’s special dark color and very afrocentric features. It would be obvious that she didn’t belong to us. Her not looking like us wasn’t a problem but if we adopted again in the future would we be obligated to adopt another child that looked just like her. I think that would be the only fair thing to do. I do think everyone deserves to have someone look like them in the family. That’s why we were open to adopting siblings. There would be a biological tie or a physical resemblance if they didn’t look like us.
We had pretty much assumed that any child we adopted from the foster care system would be much darker than us.

I will start a new thread later and post pictures of my new little girl. I have been worried that something is going to go wrong. Even though this is a private agency adoption I'm still carrying a little of that foster care adoption drama with me and contantly looking over my shoulder or waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[spaypets]

The conversation about comparing siblings reminds me of something that happened when my younger niece was born.

My older niece was a very pretty baby--the younger one was not nearly as pretty. My brother worried that the younger one would feel slighted being the homely little sister of his little princess.

Flash forward three years. Turns out, the girls look a lot a like and because the younger one is usually smiling and has a glint in her eyes, and the older one is usually pouting, I think the younger one is prettier.

But, I have to say, neither of them gets noticed at all when DD is with them--she's the one who gets the attention from strangers.

[kllee4]

OK, you travel to Vegas on vacation and come back to this..........Where have I been???

OK, most of you guys have read other posts of mine and have to know that I MUST MUST MUST add my comments!

In terms of how siblings who look differently feel, well, they have practically split my family in two. Although we are all AA, skin color separates us and it is so sad. Both sides have embraced the stereotypes and even beyond that, still cling to them. Even my sister and I are considered by the family to be on opposite ends and it pains us both. Our skin tones are a mixture of both parents, my mother being very light with long, jet black hair almost to her waist, and my dad is what the family calls "blue-black" with very thick, wavy hair. Our family has documented roots in West Africa (Liberia), Native America, and Caucasian (we have the papers to prove that our ancestors were the slaves of George Washington). I have the lighter brown coloring and my sister has a darker brown coloring.

The issues began in school when I walked my baby sister into her kindergarten class. I was spotted by my former teacher first with a huge bright smile on her face. Then she saw whose hand I was clutching and her face had a slight frown on it and asked who was the little girl on my arm. I was confused. Why would this lady that I adored before frown at the sight of my beautiful baby sister? Oh, I forgot one other component that will be relevant later (my hair is like my mom's, very long and wavy while my sister's was short and very thick).

Maybe this is why my sister began to cry. Not only was she frightened to be in school for the first time but this woman was obviously NOT happy to see her. I immediatley dropped my head as though I had done something wrong, and quietly explained who she was. I was afraid to leave her and she clung to me. I felt guilty all day and became sick right before lunch. My mother came to get me and checked on my sister as well to find her crying by herself on the playground. She was infuriated! Needless to say, that was one of my earliest memories of how others perceived us as different and I didn't understand it then.

I recall being out with my mom when my sister was a baby and her hair began to "kink up" and people would be speaking to me and I would proudly announce that I had a baby sister and I remember the puzzled looks or polite nods but, being so young, I never put it together.

My mother sat us down (I was 7, my sister was 5) and I will never forget her speech. She began speaking very forcefully, almost angrily and I knew that it wasn't directed at us. I remember her crying and I remember her taking us to the library and thus began the journey of learning our history.

I know that even today, my sister is deeply affected by people's perceptions of her coloring. She has seemed to try and embrace it. She wears small, tight twists in her hair and Afrocentric clothing. She prefers to talk very loudly and speak improper English or slang, especially in the presence of whites. She is very educated but has internalized her deep pain. She purposely chose an AA man with light skin to date and she now has a beautiful son who is much darker than she. She told me that she was a little disappointed at his coloring and I was horrified and that was the only time in our lives that I have cursed her out. I didn't speak to her or see my nephew for the first 2 months of his life even though I was present at his birth and still remember the look on her face the first time she saw him (sad). We are close once again and she has embraced his "blackness" but I sometimes wonder if his therapy sessions have anything to do with the subtle views she has about race and skin color.

Sorry this is long, but I can understand your concerns over what baby #2 will bring and how coloring may affect his/her life and the life of your daughter. I hurt for my sister and am often angry at the cruel world we live in!

[mckenna]

"with everyone raving over his brother's features, coloring, ect"

when you adopt (and often with bio children) you run the risk of one child being perceived as "cuter" than another. it does not always have to do with coloring. i have friend with 3 adopted children. the youngest 2 are full sibs. the oldest is full aa the other 2 (biologically related) are biracial. the oldest and youngest kids get way more attetion as they are perceived as "cuter" the middle child is not as attractive even though she is actuall the lightes skinned of the 3. i wonder what life will be like for her as they grow older. there is just no way to predict this unless you specify cute kids only just kidding, don't stone me!

[kllee4]

As it now pertains to us adopting in the near future (hoping, hoping, hoping), none of our sons are browner than I am. My hubby is very light and we have 2 boys with his complexion and 2 boys with mine. I often wonder what it will be like for a "chocolate" baby that may possibly have similar features to us but a totally different complexion. As we all know, however I decide to "pump up" her beauty and tell her all of the things I intend to (and of course with us it makes no difference at all), her reality will be different than mine. I pray that she will be strong and will have a high self esteem to combat the negativity that she may face.

And with my idiot family, will that also mean that she is on the "opposite" side of the color line as us (we are all lumped together on one side). As you can tell, we don't visit very often, but my boys have been shielded from their crazy views on skin color and hair texture (as we supposedly have the "good stuff")! They also say that we "talk white" and live "whitey's life". The amazing thing is this: my family is not that uncommon from friends of mine (AA). Stupid, stupid stupid!

[LisaCA]

okay, I wondered where you were . kllee, the most important question is whether you won a ton of money in vegas .

i think that's why dh was the favorite in his family-he's the lightest with the "best" hair. Like I said, a very disturbing group of people.

with my family, my little sister and I split the "good" genes: sis has the "good" hair and I had the lightest skin tone. Poor older sister had the major complex, and worst of all, she had a really light birthmark on her neck that continued to grow (what michael jackson "says" he has). She really had the major mental issues about race, but she's estranged from the family and hasn't been heard from for years. thank goodness, because she'd say something inappropriate I'm sure.

oh and we chose our facilitator because they didn't allow for the distinction between "biracial" and aa.

Kllee4, your classes must have been interesting when things got around to our great founding fathers. my guess is that you set everyone straight .

lisa

[lambeausam]

I asked my oldest son, who is dark complected, how he feels about his skin color, since it is much darker than the rest of us. He said, "Mom, I love my brown skin because you tell me how beautiful it is." Ironically, it is his half-sibling that is so very pasty white. Thankfully, our family hasn't run into comments about the varying skin tones between the five of us. Then again, being a single parent, most strangers just assumed I slept with four different men!

[kllee4]

It's funny, but I have known our history for as long as I can remember and I can recall several incidences in school in which George Washington's name was mentioned and remembered thinking, "That's not all he accomplished!!! " Somehow I always knew that the information may not be perceived well by others and I never shouted out that he was a family member of mine, but it was nice knowing that I had this secret. I became much more vocal about it once I was in high school and college. My father's side is actually from royalty in Africa, having come from an island that was named after the family. We still carry this name today and the significance of that is that we were one of the only families that was allowed to have that name once brought here to America.

I was teased for it in my early days but became prouder and prouder of it as more and more people recognized the name (from my grandfather's travels and business). I gather that this is no different from having any unusual name and having pride instilled in you from an early age about it.

I have often had this debate with my AA friends, questioning them on how they were raised and how they feel about their varying degrees of blackness. I was always interested and pained by the awful stories of how being so dark (if they happened to be) made them feel invisible. One girlfriend of mine to this day distrusts light skinned women because she said that "we" (since I'm included in this category) were always chosen by the dark skinned guys. She said she has heard from browner-skinned guys now that they are so glad that brown and black is actually "in" now so that they can step up and be noticed. More women now want them that ignored them in the era of light being "alright". Also, a lot of them commented that with the 80's came the war on drugs and I have heard that the "stigma" attached to being a young black male in that time period perpetuated the stereotype.

I will agree with Lisa in that while I do discuss race with my white friends, the depth of the discussions do not run as deep. When you can readily identify with the pain and have experienced most aspects of it, it is easier to not have to explain certain things since you share a common aspect of it. I also have friends (AA) who do not have close relationships with ANY CCs and feel that they wouldn't want to have to explain certain things. Some are distrustful, most haven't really tried. That's sad in one aspect but I can understand the comfort they feel when we are together. Sometimes we come up with conclusions; most often we can just relate.

[spaypets]

Kllee--Um, it is my understanding that George Washington was sterile from having mumps (which he had by age 15). I realize that's in dispute (are you a descendent of West Ford?), but the fact that Martha Washington had 4 children with her first husband, and sterility is a known result of mumps, I think that a good argument can be made that West Ford was fathered by someone else in the household.

[lisa in venice]

Originally Posted by redhedded

Wow! I initially found this to be offensive and condescending. Now, I just think it perplexing; it indicates a presumption that intimate relationships between blacks and whites are shallow; worse, it indicates that people do not make an effort to educate themselves and at least attempt to understand the experiences of those that they love. I am glad that my friends have never made such assumptions about me.

It's not about the shallowness of relationships it is often about a sort of cultural "shorthand". There are conversations that you have where only part of the the conversation is actually spoken. I can explain things about being black, being black and middle/upper middle class/ being black and middleclass and light skinned but I am not sure th at I can explain it all. Heck I am not sure I can articulate it all. My dh (who is Caucasian and from the Mountain West, talk about culturally opposite) and it is only after nearly twenty years of being married to me that he "gets" alot of the undertones of certain interactions amoung folks in certain social circles in the Black community. Att his point in my life my two closest friends are Caucaisian but there are some discussions that I don't have with them. There are shades and subtlies that they just don't get.

lisa