[lisa in venice]

I have a neighbor who just adopted a little girl from Haiti. This is her fourth child the older one being big blond boys of Swiss decent. This was going to be thier last child but after having this little one home for a couple of months they started the process again for two more girls from Haiti so that Stephanie would not be the only one in the family who was not a blue eyed blond. And I think Barbara is having a blast finally being the mom of a girl .

lisa

[redhedded]

while i discuss many things with my non-black friends, I don't generally discuss things like this. too much educating required to get the discussion off the ground, imho, though I could be wrong.

Wow! I initially found this to be offensive and condescending. Now, I just think it perplexing; it indicates a presumption that intimate relationships between blacks and whites are shallow; worse, it indicates that people do not make an effort to educate themselves and at least attempt to understand the experiences of those that they love. I am glad that my friends have never made such assumptions about me.

[leaabc123]

Now, I just think it perplexing; it indicates a presumption that intimate relationships between blacks and whites are shallow; worse, it indicates that people do not make an effort to educate themselves

In some relationships, this is the case. I have had many conversations with AA friends who will say that when they find themselves being the only one of color in a room, that they don't want to be forced into the role of educator on all things AA.

In many situations, people do not make an effort to educate themselves and that is sad.

[rastachris]

As the white parent of two very dark children, the subject of skin color is the most noticed and brought up by strangers. And, like others, though I have had the few people who assume they are "my" children and that my husband must be very dark-skinned, most of the general public assumes they are adopted and ask things like "where are they from?" or "are they related?"

I know that they will always look different from us and that it will be something that may very well cause any or all of us pain and sadness at some point in our lives. But I also assumed that black children (of all colors and hair types) in black families (of all colors and hair types) would not be subject to the same scrutinies or derogatory comments about skin color or other features as our children. I felt conflicted (and still do) about having adopted black children knowing that they would be subjected to all manner of teasing and rude questions about our family. But now I guess what I'm realizing is that perhaps they might have been teased or demoralized because of some feature of theirs - handed down from their birth parents - which set them apart from their own blood relatives had they been raised by their birth parents. Can't these kids get a break? ****ed if they are and ****ed if they aren't?

I'm sure it's not as simple as this and I'm beginning to realize that racism and racial purity is not just about being white and black, but it's about everything and anything. If it's not one thing, it's another. It's WAY more complex and deep-seeded than I ever realized, and that it's way more complex and deep-seeded within the Black community than I ever realized.

And I also know that it's the adults - of all races, creeds and colors - who perpetuate these issues and force them onto the new generations. Will it ever stop???

[LisaCA]

Originally Posted by redhedded

Wow! I initially found this to be offensive and condescending. Now, I just think it perplexing; it indicates a presumption that intimate relationships between blacks and whites are shallow; worse, it indicates that people do not make an effort to educate themselves and at least attempt to understand the experiences of those that they love. I am glad that my friends have never made such assumptions about me.

without being condescending or offensive, i'll say this. I spend my entire day in a white world. I've been asked to "explain" black folks so many times it's amazing. Naturally at 44, I'm starting to tire of it. Other than the month of February, I generally pass at being African American for whites. This says nothing about the larger relationships between whites and blacks, but says much about how I feel. That's all I meant to convey, nothing more, nothing less. And if what you say is true about your friends, I'm glad you've found each other too. Sounds like very special relationships.

lisa

[LisaCA]

what's fascinating about euroamerican racism is that it leaves behind an ugly residue. You'll find that wherever europeans (and americans) have been, hierarchies of color have been imposed. while colonialism may have ended in these countries, the legacy of colorism and racism have not.

If you notice, "biracial" images have generally replaced darker skinned black images in advertising: why? because these people are perceived by both races as "prettier". It can make whites comfortable about the perceived end of racism, and it makes blacks comfortable too by showing black folks (we generally don't divide into biracial categories) and we think they're prettier too. Quite disturbing.

not all african americans feel this way about color, but we're aware of how it works out there in the world. Light skin gets you things and that's a fact.

as an aside, I know of a black anthropologist studying and working with african-mexicans who identify as black (rather rare in mexico-not the combination, but the identifying as black). What they're doing is building economic ties and succeeding financially, but they can't break the color barrier there. So there's a concerted effort to marry those of indian descent (who are subject to discrimination as well). The blacks bring money but are looking to "lighten" their families, and the indians are looking for an economic leg up. all a result of spanish racism.

[redhedded]

Well, Lisa, I can only imagine the frustration of feeling placed in the position to speak for the AA experience; that is much pressure for anyone, aside from the fact that doing it is reaching for the impossible. There is no one "experience" for AAs, as Linny often points out. A rural experience, regardless of race, is so different than an urban experience, add or subtract money and opportunity, which really now often defines ones life experiences, and you have a whole new ballgame.

As much as I can, I can understand this frustration. My best friend tires of feeling put in this position also; she lives in Los Angeles. She is incredibly smart, strong, confident and of a rare independent nature; she grew up, a dark skinned child, in a very segregated southern town, within a community and family where hair and skin color was very much discussed and a measure of one's beauty. She lived in abject povery and has never had privilege a day in her life. She has worked hard for every single thing and experience that she has. Not only do I love her but am in admiration of her strength and spirit. (It is her husband, also our friend, who experienced a similar childhood who reminded me to keep looking forward, raise my kids and ignore any negativity about our family that comes our way and has often commented that he wished he were raised by my parents, something that many of my friends have stated over the years).

In addition to tiring of the position of being expected to "speak" for a black experience to unaware whites, she tires just as much of AAs who presume that they have a connection merely because the color of their skin matches.

I think both she and I are pretty unique and maybe our relationship, openness, honesty and frankness is less common than I imagined.

[LisaCA]

I think you have found something pretty unique and special. In general, most relationships don't have openness, honesty and frankness. hang on to her, she sounds like a great woman and a great friend.

[crick]

Interesting Lisa...I guess I don't look at it the same way...being an educator of whatever difference it is and tiring of being "the voice", but instead look at it as a way to celebrate my own being and sharing who I am with my friends. Not for the purpose of education, but just because I want them to know who I am as a person. Which includes the part of me that is different from them. When I share experiences of my disability, I'm not the voice of all people with the same disability. Rather, I'm just sharing who I am as an individual, which really is something I think a lot of people share with their friends.

And yes, I've had some doozies of questions that have irritated me to no end, but I find in general, they are asked by ignorant and rude people anyway which is a different scenario in my mind. Meaning...my friends aren't likely to ask me if I can ride a bike as they are educated enough to realize that being deaf does not also mean my limbs are impaired too.
I don't mean to take away from the original intent of the thread...just thought your post was an interesting pov.

[Robbye]

This is a great topic! It needs to be discussed. I am a beautiful dark chocolate and my DH is dark mocha. We were hoping for a little ‘chocolate child’ but God had other plans for us. Having had a failed placement with a bmom that looked so much like me we had to ask if she knew who her daddy was. (My poppa was a rolling stone). My dh and I assumed because of the region of the country we were in (south Virginia) we would get a nice chocolate child.

We checked everything on the ethnic background for a child – not really thinking we would get anything other than full AA. We had no idea what our son looked like we when said yes to an agency placement closed adoption. Surprised yes, disappointed no, overly thrilled not really. Our son is a mixture of AA/CC. Numerous of people have told us he looks like us --- they we not going by skin tone no doubt. If I am in public with my son without my dh people probably assume I am married to a CC or very light-skinned black man.

The comments about his hair are frequent -- from CC, “Does his hair get curly when it grows out?” Reply - “Yes – it looks great any way he wears it”. From AA’s --- “girl I know you glad he don’t have that nappy stuff” Reply – “Girl I wish he did because ignant folk would not make such comments”. (I was an English major in college – but I know how to get my point across).

We currently live in an area where we are the minorities, minority. 50/40/10. CC /Hispanic/Other. Do I tire of educating others of the black experience? Yes. I still do it (educate) if I believe the questions are coming from a sincere heart.

We are also in the process of adopting another little blessing. We have discussed skin tone and once again are open to whatever the Lord has planned. Because we live in a world that is not color/skin tone blind we have determined that we will educate our children at a veryyyyy young age about the ignorance and prejudice of others -- within our family and out in the great wide world. No matter what skin tone our 1st son will be viewed as a black man in America – to teach him otherwise would be a great disservice.

[LisaCA]

What I find interesting is that we both appear to have thought we'd get a "chocolate" color (at least that may have been what I was thinking). It's clear it still matters, even if it matters in a good way, if you know what I mean. Our only requirement was that our child must be of african descent. Beyond that, all other ethnicities/races were welcome in the mix.

Dh and I made many bad jokes based on the racism of others: That we wanted a partially white child since according to the books they seemed so special and everyone else seemed to want one (we had a book dated in the 1990s that labeled the adoption of black kids "special needs" adoptions, that we wanted a part asian baby since, as some commented, they take care of their parents(clearly a genetic thing ) and are sooo smart (some are actually pulling their kids from schools with lots of asians because the perceived high academic curve-yep, actually heard this one many times), part mexican ("they work so hard") and a dash of black just to add color. Bad joke, but living in the US you get to hear such racist comments. we were also asked 'what kind of baby' we wanted-hmmm, I guess the human kind, and probably a legit question with 3 cats and 2 rabbits.

like you, i do educate when the question seems sincere. or they catch me off guard. But for the most part i've chosen to educate on other issues (adoption right now, but i may tire of that in the next couple of years). I've just decided to live my life and go about my business. I guess I'm a bit cranky these days. I spent my life as the first in many aspects, so i feel like I'm done. since my profession as a college prof of anthro required me to discuss race, ethnicity, gender and even issues of dis/ability (to a virtually all white audience) almost daily means I'm tapped out on the subject.

what happens with our next adoption remains to be seen. I suspect if it's open (and that's the only kind we're interested in) the birthmother will take what our family looks like into account and include that into her larger list of concerns. hopefully we'll be able to step up to the plate so to speak.

[Sleeplvr]

Lisa

I have a day off and miss all this. I have been wondering when this was going to come up. Dh and I wondered the same thing. We had our first post placement visit from our SW Friday and she made a comment on how well she matched us with a child. She said that no one would ever know that we didn’t give birth to her. Our little girl is multi-racial AA/Asian/CC. Oh, by the way we have a new baby. She is 7 weeks old.
I think we used the same agency that you used and they are pretty old fashioned and purposely match by skin color. I was told by the SW during one of our meetings before placement that they believe a child deserves some privacy and by placing a child that obviously does not look like the family deprives them of it. All of the potential situations that our SW mentioned or offered to us were for biracial or multiracial infants. We were open to any child full or part AA. The agency showed our profile at their discretion.

When we met DD’s bmom she commented on how much our families resembled hers. She went into detail about particular pictures and talking about the relatives in them. So yes, bparents are scrutinizing every photo in your profile.

My mother, father and I are the same skin tone. My family as well as Dh’s family is a mixture of AA/NA/CC. I started out very light with red hair and now that I’m 40 and have been in the hot Georgia sun for so many years, I’m now a caramel or vanilla wafer brown which is the description that my husband prefers to use. My hair color eventually darkened too. My sister is darker and is a chocolate brown. She has a different hair color and texture than mine. We have the same mother and father. There were always questions alluding to or outright asking if she had a different father or if she was adopted. My sister gets her coloring from one of our grandparents. We really became aware of the questions when we got to school. When you have siblings in the same school people start to compare everything….appearance, intelligence & etc. My sister had and still has some issues regarding this. Because of the subtle and not so subtle messages that she has internalized, she has made a point of dating only light skinned AA men or CC men. She is what we call “color struck.” We have done just about everything we could do to change her views on this to no avail. No amount of compliments or letting her know that she was fine the way she was would appease her. My sister was the first one that made the following comment when she saw our little girl. She said the agency did a good job in matching our skin color.

So yes, your next child, if they happen to be darker could potentially have issues being raised in your family. Some folks on here may not like this answer but it’s a reality of life as an AA person.

[LisaCA]

first, congrats on your new baby! that's terrific. I remember 7 weeks-I think dd screamed through 90% of it (major colic ).

interesting. I think dd and any other kids are safe from my side of the family (extended family-everyone has married a number of diff folks, so everyone looks diff). My inlaws, well, that's another story. Self hating doesn't really address all their issues. his mom comes from elite, privileged blacks who enjoyed their privileged near whiteness. His dad, well, these folks have issues that are similar without the privilege. How dh came out so together is beyond me, a testament to the fact that your parents can only do so much damage. Their ability to comment on my children will be limited, mostly for my sanity. I'm more worried about what others outside of the family will say/do.

our facilitator didn't match based on color, in fact I don't think they had a picture of bmom before we sent one post placement. They just had our elaborate profiles, which didn't really mention skin tone in a black way. Bmom had our profiles and pictures, and may have selected us, consciously or unconsciously, including skin tone. her mom thinks she picked us due to my vegetarianism and the fact that my profile sounded like her and her mom . We were only concerned that the child have some african heritage, quantity not an issue. wonder what will happen with our next child...

and sorry about your sis- amazing what this concept of race has managed to do to otherwise sane people. I think most blacks have a few in their family that are this way .

and congrats again! have you posted a picture of your baby?

Lisa

[rram83]

I just had to chime in. DH and I are both CC. I am very,very, white--red hair, freckles, burn in 5 minutes outside. DH is tall and bald with a very military baring. We are in the process of adopting bi-racial sibs. FD is vey tall for age, light skin (she burn after about 30 min in sun) but has very AA features. Thick curly hair, wider nose and thicker lips (very exotic looking and is going to be a knock out). FS is small for age, darker (especially now that summer is here but has CC features. --looks like bio mom). We were at a store the other day and an AA woman was talking to DH about her beautiful hair. I walked up and she said, 'OH, now I see where you get your red high lights. ' I do think God gives you the right children. By the way FS is a lot like me in personallity and FD is just like my sister right down to the gap in her front teeth.

[Nevada Jen]

I agree. It is an interesting topic. We are white and have recently adopted a biracial newborn. So far he is very white. (whiter than any of the white people in my family) I am getting a little tired of people asking if I am sure he is biracial. Anyway, this was an agency pick closed adoption and he looks exactly like my white sisters baby. Since he is now a month old we are getting ready to plan the next adoption and I have been thinking the same thing. If we adopted one more it would be partially so he had a sib who shared his experience. I was thinking that the experience would not be the same unless the sib was very light skinned. Glad to think that I am not crazy or any more racist than the rest of society in thinking this.

By the way, the same color preferencing happens to white people. Trust me. You are way smarter, prettier, athletic and popular if you have blond hair and blue eyes. God forbid you end up with red hair and freckles! OK as an adult, I know this is not true, but it was very much an issue growing up. Sleeplvr, I don't think your sister is crazy. As the only fat, brown haired, ugly sister of 4 blue eyed blonds, I would say it definately damaged my self image. And my name was at the end of the alphabet. I did somewhat grow out of the beauty issues but I refused to date anyone whose name was not in the first half of the alphabet.

My point is that there are ingrained prejudices in every race. But it seems rare where adoptive parents don't somehow end up looking like their children. I would not stress about this too much Lisa. You will get the child that is intended for you. Your previous experience is a perfect example.

Jen