[kakuehl]

Djvj,
I respect you intentions, mine are very similar. I would caution you to remember, however, that your daughter is an young adult. She may not appreciate what she may see as interference as she attempts to establish herself as a self-sufficient adult. I think you can encourage her to invite her amom to be part of the process, insisting on it is sort of a red flag for me personally. Tread carefully and listen a lot!

Whether we raise biological or adopted children, it is always a challenge to make the switch to having adult children. (My mother always said, when I'm ninety and you're 70, I'll still be your mother and I'll still tell you what do do... As a result, I try to offer advice ONLY when my children ask.)

You have an exciting opportunity to get to know your bdaughter. If you have a relationship with amom, you can keep in touch and see how she's doing. You can ask your daughter what she hears from her parents.

For me, one of the most positive aspects of my relationship with D is that both of us have made it clear that my presence in his life does not replace her. She is and remains his mother.

Good luck!

[kakuehl]

Lynn, I wrote a long response to you earlier today and then lost it before I could post it (I HATE it when that happens).

I think the question of what is nature and what is nurture is still an open question. I was amazed to find gestures,etc. that were identical to his bdad's (who died in 2000 and whom he never met). His personality fits much better with mine than with his aparents. (We first "met" when he was almost 33.) Other aspects about him are harder to declare nature or nurture, because all (a & b) parents are college grads and none of us have been in prison or on drugs, our backgrounds, values, etc. are very similar. D was very rebellious as a teen and basically moved in with a friend when he was a teen. Luckily, by the time I came into his life, he and his parents had rebuilt their relationship. (I look forward to seeing all of them at the next birthday party - D's one son in 2 in Sept.)

My best advice is to practice patience and unconditional love. (Easier said than done.) Oh, and pray!

[djvj]

Originally Posted by kakuehl

Djvj,
I respect you intentions, mine are very similar. I would caution you to remember, however, that your daughter is an young adult. She may not appreciate what she may see as interference as she attempts to establish herself as a self-sufficient adult. I think you can encourage her to invite her amom to be part of the process, insisting on it is sort of a red flag for me personally. Tread carefully and listen a lot!

Whether we raise biological or adopted children, it is always a challenge to make the switch to having adult children. (My mother always said, when I'm ninety and you're 70, I'll still be your mother and I'll still tell you what do do... As a result, I try to offer advice ONLY when my children ask.)

You have an exciting opportunity to get to know your bdaughter. If you have a relationship with amom, you can keep in touch and see how she's doing. You can ask your daughter what she hears from her parents.

For me, one of the most positive aspects of my relationship with D is that both of us have made it clear that my presence in his life does not replace her. She is and remains his mother.

Good luck!

reunion is such a delicate, delicate thing...

if i didn't live in the same city bdaughter was moving to i am sure her parents would be very involved in helping her find a place, get settled, etc. she will definitely need help: she has lived a very sheltered life in a small town and is moving out of home for the first time, to a big strange city in a far away state...and of course i want to help since i know this city well but i also think amom as a mother should be involved in the process. it would feel like i was a "replacement" if i were asked by bdaughter to step in and fill that role that would be filled by amom in another situation; even though i have helped her get the job i would have done the same in any city i had contacts...

i am pretty sure it is just "assumed" by all parties that aparents will be involved if she moves. if she were my 23 year old cousin, i guess i wouldn't feel the need to request that my aunt come here and help...but at the same time i know my aunt would be here anyway... hopefully amom will feel entitled. i, for one, welcome her here simply as a friend, not only as my bdaughter's mother.

if bdaughter wants to do everything herself, then no problem. but if she needs help, it seems fair to both amom and myself that amom's role of mother and helper is maintained. i truly DON'T want to replace amom, and in fact, i CAN'T, because i don't yet really know the adult my bdaughter has become and i am not equipped to know what kind of living situation she would be comfortable in. plus, while i am more than willing to financially help her i want to defer to her parents first as i know it is really important to them to remain the "providers". (amom asked me to not buy bdaughter gifts, etc, as she needs to learn financial independence.)

and then, there is just the fact that i am so thankful to aparents for always giving me a space in bdaughter's life. they didn't "wait and see" if she wanted to know about me, they had my photos and gifts around her since she was a baby. our daughter is young, and we all know very young women can be a little self absorbed. if she isn't already aware that this is a delicate time for amom then i feel it is my place to remind her and encourage her to keep amom included. i won't demand it of course; i have no right to demand anything from any of them, but i would gently discuss it and do everything i could to encourage amoms participation with both amom and bdaughter.

and of course, i don't want to focus on the negative: i am overjoyed both at reunion with bdaughter AND her afamily as i have a lot of affection towards her parents and love them both as people. these are the kind of folks i would befriend without any adoption connection. so this will be an opportunity for me to get to see all 3 of them more frequently. if bdaughter moved to a different city i am sure i would see her parents much less. so i want to keep in mind this is an opportunity for all of us to form deeper connections...

[kakuehl]

Have you considered inviting her amom to come stay with you when DD is moving? I don't know if you are comfortable, but it would definitely convey that you expect her to be involved and aren't trying to take her place.

D's amom has always been pleasant but it's taken a couple of years for her to become comfortable with the idea tha I'm in D's life. Recently, we finally talked a little bit of what it was like when they got the call about D. It felt so good to have her tell me the story!

[djvj]

our story is really cool....

when i called aparents 5 weeks ago, they booked plane ticket the next night for the whole family + E's boyfriend to come to sf for 5 days. at the end of reunion, they said i was a full fledged member of the family and welcome at their home for holidays, etc...we all really enjoy each other. aparents are old enough to be my parents, 21 and 28 years older than me, and i think they are hoping E will see me as a "big sis". amom even said she wanted to be grandma to my future children (i want to get pregnant this year, knock on wood) as she knows i have zero relationship with my own parents.

i will be going camping in their state with all of them for 6 days next week, and will stay at their house for 1 night as well. so it will be easy to let amom know she is equally welcome in my home.

the more i think about it (thanks for the great feedback) the more i feel i will just present it to amom as an exciting opportunity for us all to be together. this is the truth, at least for me. and the more time she has to see no one can ever take away her bond with E i am sure the better she will feel. and i hope she really realizes that i not only love and respect her, but truly like her and want her to be part of my "extended" family.

i really care about her and her feelings and it's why i worry so much about how all this will feel to her. i just want to be supportive to her while at the same time feel free to develop a relationship with my bdaughter...

[Lynn Barry]

Holy cowabunga, this is great!

Nature vs nurture...I would have to say in my experience adopting a former foster child who was five when she came to us...nature is more influencial than nurture...the only thing that crosses the line is in my opinion is THE LOVE...I do believe the girl I raised from five years old does love me...but she seems more comfortable living amongst her birth relatives...or at least those who live like her birth relatives...the guy her b-dad raised...in and out of trouble...on assistance...my daughter seems to be attracted to living like that too...she often said we were "dull" and then she'd laugh...and the substance abuse whether in the genes or not is a huge factor as well...b-mom is a crack addict prostitute and dad is an alcoholic and they all smoke...I hope my daughter is not abusing drugs, since she told us she is carrying her 4th child, but she never gave up smoking even when pregnant...I could go on with examples but it seems silly...it is complicated no matter how you look at it...but impossible...no...people are always going to need others to raise the babies they give birth to for a variety of reasons and for some couples this is the only way they can raise kids...in my case I had two sons...and later I gave birth to another son, so for me it was some kind of desire to add a child to the family since I had trouble getting pregnant and had to have c-sections...I always wanted to adopt even as a kid ...not sure why...I need to regroup...I am really enjoying this exchange with everyone...thanks!

[Lynn Barry]

djvj,

You are wonderful...enjoy all of it...your heart is open and you are appropriate...I am very happy for you and your daughter and a-parents...what an ideal situation. I love it!

[djvj]

lynn
i feel grateful for this thread too, and really am getting a lot from reading your posts. when i see how similar the situations and emotions that both bmoms and amoms face at different times are, i have to think that a child who respects one type of bond (nature) would be more likely in the long run to respect the other (nurture). 23 years ago i let my daughter go without any concrete assurance she would ever want to include me in her life. now you are doing the same. it is so hard, and so painful, and takes a lot of selfless love. but i believe this selfless love IS mother love. meaning, you are in fact cementing your place in her life by letting her go and remaining constant in being willing to let her back into your life. think of all the special moments, funny stories, laughs, tears, hugs, bedtime stories, and experiences you share together. those can NEVER be erased or taken away by her having a relationship with the bmom. no matter how close they become or seem to be, they can't take those memories and emotional ties away any more than you can extract the bmom's genes from her body. i hope this is comforting to you, as it sounds like in your case the bfamily is not very healthy and supportive to your feelings. i send you a big hug on their behalf.

i wanted to offer my own gut reaction to your story. it sounds like your daughter is struggling a bit with some of her lifestyle choices and i have a feeling that a big part of her distance is more about that then it is about her birthfamily replacing you. she might be getting acceptance for negative behaviors from her bfamily, which isn't healthy and in the long run will probably not last. i know some bio families who have children who act in a similar way and it is because the adult children know their choices are not healthy in the eyes of their parents, so they kind of hide their lives from them. i hope i'm not saying the wrong thing, this was just my opinion from what i read about your situation on this thread. i hope her bfamily are not encouraging her to have an unhealthy lifestyle, and it makes me sad that you have to cope with this possibility...but i would hope that as she matures and grows she will recognize it as a negative instead of a positive.

as far as nature/nurture, i think they are both incredibly powerful bonds, in different ways. there might be a desire (however unconscious) from the perspective of the adoptee to try at first to see if they can get it all in one place (meaning attempt to see if bfamily can give them the same nurture bond you did) but that is only a fantasy and simply can not last.

here is a poem that has given me great comfort over the years of being apart from my bdaughter. i think it is true for every family, bio or adopted, when it comes to parents and their adult children

On Children
by Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

thanks again for sharing your experience with me, and i send you all my best wishes and hopes that things will work out for you and your daughter

[Lynn Barry]

djvj,

I have no choice but let go...she is 29, has been in the neighborhood she was removed from (and placed into a foster home at age 6 months) for the past seven years, with very little contact...I have had no choice...just like this call out of the blue...the number is "restricted" and she didn't tell us where she is exactly so I have no choice but to let go.
Not only do the birth relations support negative behavior they encourage it...her half sibling's mother paid for a hotel room and supplied booze for all her friends on her 18th b-day...Star said her half sibling is "spoiled" and I see it as endangering the welfare of a minor. As soon as the kids in the family are 12 or 13 they start smoking and drinking and are encouraged to. It breaks my heart that Star wants to raise her sons in this environment, but she does. They act like little huds at times already and they are under 10. So, my story is quite different. And yet Star excelled in track in HS even went to states and could of had her haridressing license but she didn't take the test...and on and on...I thought she was a good mother but since she exposes her sons to teens doing all kinds of negative things, including having multiple sex partners I am sad about all that too...we are dull, though...and this small town is "boring"...she would rather live in a city where she can go out at one a.m. to get a donut if she wants to...those were the reasons she said when she left here again...I am not painting a negative picture...just being real.

I loved her at age five when I met her in her foster home and she looked up at me and said, "Do you want me?" I loved her when she left right after High school to live with friends and be on her own...I loved her when she never came back from a b-relative reunion and dropped out of sight...the love has never stopped and never will...I miss knowing what her kids are doing, what she is making for supper, the daily routine... We tried to save her from the abusive boyfriend six months ago...well, when she called she said she was pregnant, this being the third by the guy who her b-dad raised...so it is complicated for sure...but all the time we just keep telling her we love her...at times it seemed she wanted us to say otherwise...I think at times it is easier for some to fail...but the love is always there...another thing she always says is, "I'm not happy." I wonder if she ever will be...sad but true...I think she suffers from detachment disorder, but she comes across as okay...she's beautiful and has street smarts but she keeps making choices that bite her in the butt...like having a fling with her neighbor who was on parole and that is when they all came last December and lived with us for a month before we let them rent a house we own...the BF was in and out and she learned he was with someone else too...then she left out of the blue and no call until the other night...

For me it is not a matter of b-mom issues...she has only seen her b-mom a couple times, the woman is a working prostitute and crack addict...she does see her b-dad and his common law wife and at times it was the common law wife that made me insecure...she has a son and daughter who are Star's half siblings and they are all close, or as close as they can be it seems with all the inappropriate behavior going on all the time...Star at this point is the only one who has not done time...her b-dad was in jail for robbery when she was born...

I bet you are exhausted...I need to stop...I love her...I wish that she had just stayed here at the beginning of the year and away from all the negativity, but she didn't and we accept that...she somehow feels a better fit there and is obsessed with Bill who was raised by her b-dad and commonlaw wife...kind of being connected with the life she would have had, even though it sucked, that's what Bill said...she somehow wants to be a part of it all...and her kids are blood related to it all now too...

thanks for listening...I really am glad she called...we may not have anything else...but we have the love.

Thanks! HUGS

[kakuehl]

Lynn, I read your story and my heart aches for you. I think you may be right about the attachment disorder. I think it's also possible that she is still trying to get her birth family to love her. It's a funny thing about children who are abused, neglected, etc., by their parents. They internalize it and blame themselves... and spend the rest of their lives trying to get their birth family to love them or even acknowledge them.

All you can do, is pray for her, and wait in hope for her to come home.

May God grant you a quiet night and refreshing sleep.

[Lynn Barry]

Dear Kathy,
Thank you so much...I sure do pray... the Serenity Prayer has helped me the most during all of this...Star told me that she was trying to save her half siblings and Bill since she was saved, but Bill didn't like it here when they were here, so he bolted then she bolted...such is life...thanks Kathy...I really love how we try to support and help each other...with this comes understanding and some sense of peace.

I was at peace not hearing, I had come to a real good place...actually when she called it was weird. LOL

oh life...never dull...even if Star thinks her parents are dull, life never really is...

HUGS

[Lynn Barry]

I believe the insecurites enter because the a-parent raises the child and looks forward to finally being more of an equal or friend when the child comes of age and when the reunion happens and the b-parent and the adoptee are the ones to become friends, the a-parent feels cheated...lost in the shuffle...but what to do about it...sometimes there isn't much that can be done...patience and time and sometimes a complete letting go...the acceptance that it is the way it is...a resolve that it was okay to just raise the child and let that be all that it was or is...sounds so final, but for some of us it is. For others it is a truly spectacular experience without all the drama...I really am fine. A phone call every six months or year or two years is better than nothing.

Keep the understanding alive...it's all good. PEACE!

[love4]

I agree Lynn. I hoped for a fun friendship when my daughter became an adult. I am cheated. I am lost in the shuffle. My daughter's birthmom monopolizes all my daughter's free time. My daughter lets it happen. My daughter bought my mother in laws home and her birthmom has taken over. That house was ours. It feels like it was stolen.

I heard all the nice words from birthmom. She didn't want to hurt anyone. She just wanted to see that her daughter was o.k. She doesn't want to take my place. She thanked me for raising my daughter. My daughter tells everyone that I am mom. She loves me. All the words are great if they are backed up with action.

Like you said Lynn. We had no choice but to let go. We are fine. Thanks to your friendship I have been able to have support and an understanding heart.

All of us have experienced a loss of control. not just adoptees.

[kakuehl]

Lynn, I hear you... (My kids think I'm boring too, btw). I think for all parents that letting go needs to happen if we are to have an adult relationship with our grown children. I find with my own that sometimes they call frequently... sometimes I don't hear from them for quite a while. (And they really don't like it if I "check up" on them!)

Remember that both bparent and bchild often have idealized the relationship they could have/would have had. Time usually reveals reality. I wonder how many adoptees still carry that child within them that says that if they'd only pleased their parents enough they wouldn't have been placed.

Sometimes it seems to me we all have that little voice inside of us that says, "If I'd only been a better parent/child/friend/etc., he/she wouldn't act like this." As adults we know that is most often NOT true, but still...

Remember the nursery rhyme "Little Bo Peep?" My advice is usually, "Leave them alone and they'll come home, wagging their tales behind them." Often, we get further as parents if we let them go and welcome them home when they come back. (Praying a lot, of course.)

[love4]

as for me there are very different emotions between letting go of my girls to become independant, go off to college, get married, have inlaws, etc and then to have a daugther go off to have a relationship with her birthfamily. An inlaw doesn't have that same bond that you have with your children. Your children's friends don't have that same bond as you have with your children. A birthmom has a bond with your child that no one else shares. It is a very DIFFERENT letting go. I have a married daughter who has a child and inlaws and a life I share with others. I don't have any problems with that. My daugther is mine and I am hers. There is that special bond that no one else shares.

My letting go had more to do with letting go of anger, self pity, sorrow, grief, agony, etc so that I could move on with life and not give my power away to have peace in my life regardless of whether my daughter wanted me or not.