[RavenSong]

MamaS - Maybe it was a regional thing back in the 1980's...because that is NOT how adoption of twins was being handled here in California. I relinquished my newborn infant in 1972. I first met with the caseworker at the county public adoption agency when I was about 7 months along in my pregnancy, so that was actually the end of 1971. Anyway, I specifically remember her assuring me that if I gave birth to twins, they would go to the same family. There were no if's, and's, or but's about it. That's how it was done during the '70s in California. One of my friends relinquished her daughter the same year thru Catholic Charities. And she was told the same thing before the baby was born.

I am beyond stunned that this practice of splitting up twins even exists in our country...and I don't give a rat's patootie if they're fraternal twins or identical twins. Those children have the God-given right to grow up together. They've spent nine long months in the womb together; it's a sin, IMHO, to split babies up like that.

[MamaS]

Ravensong: These were private agencies (not county or church-related). They existed to make a profit I think -- at least the agency's owner/directors seemed to live well. In my previous post I referred to PAP's as clients of the agency, but it was almost like being a customer at an exclusive boutique. There was a waiting list for female infants (0-24 months) and no waiting list for male infants or "older" children (2 yr and up). Sibling groups were treated as two adoptions with two fees -- no BOGOs.
There were NO handicapped or mixed-race children offered. (Not that some did not have physical problems. In one case a 5-year-old girl arrived and it was discovered she was profoundly deaf. The agency returned her to her native country and "replaced" her immediately with a baby boy. Everyone felt sorry for the AP's because they already had three bio-sons.)
Babies were coming from Korea at the rate of six or seven a month (I was not eligible for Korea because I was single.) So, I could choose from India, Colombia or El Salvador. No travel required, meet your new child at the nearest international airport! From the time I handed them my first payment of $6000 until the time the escort placed my little girl's hand in mine was exactly nine months -- and I was the last person in my orientation group to receive my child. There was no agency followup. They had their money, I had my child -- transaction complete. Looking back at it now, it certainly seems like "buying a baby". There was no mention of the birthmother, except for the information on the paperwork -- her name, age, and occupation -- if known. We were given basic instructions:
Take them home and love them.
Teach them to speak English.
Complete readoption and citizenship asap.

[cborsa7]

WOW- this thread needs a new topic.

Getting back to the subject, Missionrunner were you able to get an answer from your agency? I am curious how they will go about the fee explanation should they give you one. Please let us know IF they ever answer your email.

[meghann]

Wow, that's a hefty extra fee.

I understand why agencies would be hesitant to do twin adoptions as - someone else used this phrase & it seems to fit with all the talk of profits and money - BOGO. But $15K seems excessive to me. With my agency, that sort of fee would be basically paying the placement fee twice.

One agency we looked at when we thought we were going to be moving (husband's company was talking about transferring him) had fees of $29K and if your situation was a sibling pair (and I guess twins would count here) it was $6K additional. Their fee schedule included their attorney's fees & whatnot, though, so I imagine the extra covered that sort of thing. Although it still seems excessive.

Our agency had a smaller placement fee, but attorney's fees were in addition to the placement fee. I think if they had charged an additional placement fee PLUS extra attorney's fees, I would have turned down a twin placement.

I think I might have been inclined to find another agency if I was told a twin placement would be that much more. I accepted the placement fees at our agency with the understanding that they provide a great deal of counseling to expectant mothers who seek them out, and that only a small percentage of those mothers choose to place, so my fees are subsidizing the costs associated with that. And I think counseling before a decision is made is crucial, so I gladly paid the fees, knowing that other women were getting the resources they needed to make an informed, well-thought-out decision.

But charging that high an extra fee for a twin placement smacks of the agency just deciding to charge more money *because it can.* Because someone will pay it. Because PAPs want babies so badly that someone will look beyond the baby-selling feel of it & just pay the fee.

God, we need adoption reform so badly. It doesn't matter how many of *us* refuse to take part in practices that seem "off" - there is always someone out there who *is* willing to play. And as long as that's the case, agencies that do "off" things won't change their practices unless they're forced to.

[cborsa7]

God, we need adoption reform so badly.

Amen..I Couldn't agree more.

[Dickons]

And people wonder why there are 'angry adoptees'.

Adoptive parents are the ones who can make the difference in whether adoption reform happens. They have the power as they are touted as the solution and that is the only way I can see anything changing...until then...no matter how many adoptees or birth parents raise their voices in protest those who hold the political clout to force change will never do it.


Kind regards,
Dickons

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by meghann

Wow, that's a hefty extra fee.

I understand why agencies would be hesitant to do twin adoptions as - someone else used this phrase & it seems to fit with all the talk of profits and money - BOGO. But $15K seems excessive to me. With my agency, that sort of fee would be basically paying the placement fee twice.

One agency we looked at when we thought we were going to be moving (husband's company was talking about transferring him) had fees of $29K and if your situation was a sibling pair (and I guess twins would count here) it was $6K additional. Their fee schedule included their attorney's fees & whatnot, though, so I imagine the extra covered that sort of thing. Although it still seems excessive.

Our agency had a smaller placement fee, but attorney's fees were in addition to the placement fee. I think if they had charged an additional placement fee PLUS extra attorney's fees, I would have turned down a twin placement.

I think I might have been inclined to find another agency if I was told a twin placement would be that much more. I accepted the placement fees at our agency with the understanding that they provide a great deal of counseling to expectant mothers who seek them out, and that only a small percentage of those mothers choose to place, so my fees are subsidizing the costs associated with that. And I think counseling before a decision is made is crucial, so I gladly paid the fees, knowing that other women were getting the resources they needed to make an informed, well-thought-out decision.

But charging that high an extra fee for a twin placement smacks of the agency just deciding to charge more money *because it can.* Because someone will pay it. Because PAPs want babies so badly that someone will look beyond the baby-selling feel of it & just pay the fee.

God, we need adoption reform so badly. It doesn't matter how many of *us* refuse to take part in practices that seem "off" - there is always someone out there who *is* willing to play. And as long as that's the case, agencies that do "off" things won't change their practices unless they're forced to.

I agree, and when money is invovled the sleazecome crawling out. Reform is needed badly to protect everyone ..most importantly the babies.

[dpen6]

Originally Posted by Dickons

And people wonder why there are 'angry adoptees'.

Adoptive parents are the ones who can make the difference in whether adoption reform happens. They have the power as they are touted as the solution and that is the only way I can see anything changing...until then...no matter how many adoptees or birth parents raise their voices in protest those who hold the political clout to force change will never do it.


Kind regards,
Dickons

I so agree.

[meghann]

Originally Posted by Dickons

And people wonder why there are 'angry adoptees'.

Adoptive parents are the ones who can make the difference in whether adoption reform happens. They have the power as they are touted as the solution and that is the only way I can see anything changing...until then...no matter how many adoptees or birth parents raise their voices in protest those who hold the political clout to force change will never do it.


Kind regards,
Dickons

I agree with you Dickons.

I think a big part of the problem is that there are a lot of adoptive parents/potential adoptive parents out there who don't see that there is a problem. They want a baby, by whatever means necessary. Every one of *us* who says no f-ing way to practices like this simply means one fewer person "in line" ahead of them. We may go elsewhere, but those people will pay whatever they have to and deal with agencies that see emoms and babies as nothing more than profits, and as long as there are people out there like that...

I'm going to have a chat with my state assemblyman about this next time I see him. The task seems so daunting, and the solution - across-the-board national reform - seems so out of reach with everything else going on in the world. But I'm a big believer in the power of thinking globally & acting locally. If enough of us make enough noise locally (i.e., at the state level), then maybe we can start making changes that will resonate across the country.

And if that doesn't work...well, I'm planning to go back to law school when J starts grade 1, and I wanted to go into family law so that I could more effectively advocate for adoption reform. I'm liking that plan more & more these days...

[Dickons]

Meghann,

Thank you for your post! I know it seems like it is impossible to make a global change for all the reasons you post - but once a spark exists it can become a fire storm. I have nothing against companies making profit - but when they make the profitable side so very enticing - the not so ethical people jump on board and babies become simply merchandise for those who will pay the price and the concept of adoption for the good of the child is lost.

If you have not read "The Baby Thief" by Barbara Bisantz Raymond, an adoptive mother you should. It is about adoption in America circa 1906 - 1950 and the woman Georgia Tann...a was a very hard read for me an adoptee so I would imagine it may be even harder for you, but it is reality of the process of tailor made babies for parents and the prices they would pay and the lengths that bad people went to, the corruption that existed at the county and state levels...incredibly hard to fathom. 60 minutes did a story on the book - wish I had seen it.

Kind regards,
Dickons

[Dickons]

Missionrunner,

Have you received a reply regarding the extra fee? Sorry to hijack your thread...

Kind regards,
Dickons

[missionrunner]

No, I have not received an answer from our agency. Sorry for the delay in responding to your question but I had to take a break from the thread. We are now looking into signing on with a different agency that is little more on the ball with responding to concerns from PAPs. Any suggestions? Please PM me.

Thanks to those of you who tried to answer my question.

[meghann]

Originally Posted by Dickons

If you have not read "The Baby Thief" by Barbara Bisantz Raymond, an adoptive mother you should. It is about adoption in America circa 1906 - 1950 and the woman Georgia Tann...a was a very hard read for me an adoptee so I would imagine it may be even harder for you, but it is reality of the process of tailor made babies for parents and the prices they would pay and the lengths that bad people went to, the corruption that existed at the county and state levels...incredibly hard to fathom. 60 minutes did a story on the book - wish I had seen it.

I'm glad you posted this - it reminded me that I got a notice from the library over the weekend that it was there waiting for me (I had to request it from another branch) & I have to go pick it up today.

I saw the discussion about it elsewhere & that prompted me to request it. I'm sure it will be hard to read, but as Brandy said, we have to know where we came from to figure out where we're going. It sounds like a lot of the practices that still exist that I find objectionable - even in dealing with an agency like the one I was fortunate to find, which is very ethical and concerned with finding families for babies who need them, rather than the other way around - started right there.

[cborsa7]

Originally Posted by missionrunner

No, I have not received an answer from our agency. Sorry for the delay in responding to your question but I had to take a break from the thread. We are now looking into signing on with a different agency that is little more on the ball with responding to concerns from PAPs. Any suggestions? Please PM me.

Thanks to those of you who tried to answer my question.

Missionrunner:
Sorry your thread turned into another topic other than the one intended by you. I am glad to hear you have the ability to change your agency at this time. Hopefully you will be able to get some good suggestions for an alternative agency that can meet your needs properly. Good luck to your family! Wishing you all the best on your journey!

[aclee]

The agencies I worked with did charge some extra fees for twins. It was nominal though to cover additional paperwork for termination etc...two sets instead of one. They also warned that expenses on twins could be more because there was a higher chance of the emom being put on bed rest. If the agency charges a flat fee, that covers support like that, it might be why they charge more. To me though, it sounds like they are charging more because they know you can theoretically take the tax credit on both babies...Heaven forbid you get out of the adoption not paying anything!!!