[marcav]

I have not seen this posted elsewhere in the many discussions about culture, so I'll introduce it here. My son and I live in a very culturally diverse area, and I am grateful that he has the opportunity to attend a primarily AA daycare. About a month ago he was looking for something under his crib and he said, "Where's it at?" I absentmindedly corrected him and said, "Where is it, not 'where's it at?'" when I suddenly realized that he was addressing the question in the AA vernacular English. Of course he looked at me like he didn't know what I was talking about (and of course he didn't, he's only 2 1/2!), but it got me thinking about the whole linguistic debate a few years back and the legitimacy of ebonics. I realize that he will adopt my speech patterns and lexicon since I am who he's living with, but I am curious as to what other experience caucasion parents have had with this. I tend to think that this level of enculturation would help him to be more accepted by black kids who are suspicious of other black children who sound "too white" or who are otherwise unable to "code-switch" due to a lack of exposure in an AA community. Thoughts?

[Archive]

I say "Where's it at?" all the time and I'm CC. I don't buy into "black talk" "white talk" Your little man will speak as he is taught and influenced by those around him. If you have him around a diverse group of children he will gravitate where ever he feels the most comfortable. Hopefully he will choose friends of all races. My son is Asian, most of his friends are CC and his likes tend to lean towards AA influenced music, tv shows, clothing etc.

[fastaff]

My first inital knee jerk response was 'what the heck is AA English?" I'm black and took a little offense to this, but I'm calm now!! Like scatterbrain said your guy will speak as he is taught. The influence around him will play a part just like those crazy sayings like; "whatever...that's hot....are you serious"...I was raised in England so grammar is important to me. I too will correct Abby when she uses incorrect grammar, slang will be for the street not our home. I cringe when I have gone on interviews and the interviwer says " oh, you didn't sound black on the phone"...I don't know if this is meant as a compliment but it is not taken as such. I understand what you mean though by other blacks being suspicious...when I first came to America I had a very strong English accent, my black co-workers didn't speak/like me because they said I sounded too white!! crazy but true. I did change my accent to sound more southern ( I was in Arkansas at the time), which I regret to this day as now I hardly sound English at all...
Good for you though for trying to make yourself aware, this is agreat place to ask questions and remember there are no stupid questions. Continue to educate yourself, your son will thank you later..

God bless
<<<hugs>>>

[Linny]

I'm glad I'm not the first CC person to state that I talk this way sometimes too...and I turn around and correct myself too. LOL
My mom was VERY strict about the way we kids talked...she corrected us often---especially in saying the correct noun to verb useage.
What surprises me greatly, is that our children----on occasion, have spoken as though they've never heard the correct way to speak.
"There's many over there'....(for example) makes my skin crawl....and I find myself saying to them,
"It's not there's many'...it's 'there ARE many'......heck, I even see this mistake in newspapers and on TV ads. Really bugs me....and it has nothing to do with 'black or white'...but more, IMO, with anyone not taking the time to learn to say it correctly.
Do I speak too quickly or in a slang-mode sometimes? Sure I do.
But I've found my children will pick up on commercials, etc......and if I don't correct them....well, you understand.

While one child was much younger and attending speech, I spoke to the therapist about this. Your example of 'where's it at?'....is common when children are much younger, I think.
It's trying to have them see the difference when they're older that's the task! The color of skin makes no difference.

Sincerely,

Linny

[marcav]

Thanks for your responses. I knew when I threw this out there it would generate some controversy, and when I first started thinking about this I read up on the issue. From the Center for Applied Linguistics:

Is AAE a language, a dialect, slang, or just plain bad English?
AAE is a systematic language variety, with patterns of pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, and usage that extend far beyond slang. Because it has a set of rules that is distinct from those of Standard American English, characterizations of the variety as bad English are incorrect; speakers of AAE do not fail to speak Standard American English, but succeed in speaking African American English with all its systematicity. Linguists are less concerned with whether or not AAE is a language or a dialect (terms that are more important socially and politically than linguistically) than with recognizing the systematic nature of AAE.

AAVE or AAE is the term Linguists have coined to categorize this particular dialect which probably originated in West Africa. It generated a lot of negative publicity in the '90s when the Oakland, CA school district passed a resolution to use "Ebonics" as a teaching tool to compare and contrast standard American English. It was commonly thought that it was being taught in the schools, when that actually was not the case. The reasoning behind the resolution was simply to educate the children on the differences among dialects as opposed to simply telling them that the dialect they spoke was "wrong". Much of the research indicates that this is a more effective teaching method.

If you take the "color" aspect out of it, you could substitute any number of other dialects; e.g., cajun; southern; brooklyn, etc. I do agree that the political, social and class connotations do make this a sensitive subject, but I have always been interested in the power of language. AAE is certainly the mainstay of such cultural idioms as Hip-Hop and Rap, and is richly represented in literature.

My primary concern as a parent is to enable my child to bridge the gap between cultures, and if this helps him out, so be it.

[Sleeplvr]

I live in the South and that is a form of "southern speak" here. It crosses racial lines but somehow it has been assigned to black people as our standard way of speaking. Just another stereotype.

[BethanyB]

I have to say I'm a bit offended that you think this is how black people speak. I hope you know that not all black people speak the same way or dres the same or listen to the same music. Being a teacher in many different school districts (including a black inner city school) I can tell you that poor grammar is spoken by people from all racial and socioeconomic backgrounds.

Your child is just learning how to talk. Most young children's speech is not grammatically correct. It is up to us as parents to correct them so they learn proper english. Most teens talk in some sort of slang. Whether it's phrases like, "my bad", "sweet", or "I feel you." This is normal and totally okay in my book as long as they CAN speak correctly when not with friends.

I would just hate for my kids to say something wrong and have another parent assume my kids speaks like that because he's black when really it's because he's three.

[bajj]

marcav, as fastaff pointed out, this is a safe place to ask these questions.

I am southern. I have recdently moved to a new state that while technically is not part of the south, I always considered it so. We visited a church last night (that I fell in love with) and seriously, I could not understand one of the prayers. It has nothing to do with the color of the skin of the person praying. I just have "slow" southern ears and he has a much faster tongue than my ears can keep up with!

I'm glad you feel free to ask controversial questions, which helps all of us to continue to educate ourselves!

[marcav]

Well it appears that there are 2 themes running through this thread: 1) That I think all black people speak the same, and 2) What I am talking about is simply bad grammer.

As I mentioned, I live in a very diverse area and I work in an inner city hospital. Many of my colleagues and coworkers are black; and I interact with people of various ethnicities routinely. My best friend is black and has attended better schools (ivy league) and speaks much more eloquently than I do! I think therefore, that I can put that assumption to rest.

The second one is more puzzling to me, as I have already cited a source for the definition of AAVE. If anyone has a source that contradicts that definition, I would like to see it posted. I stated that AAE is most likely derived from West Africa and the Caribbean. The following is some discussion regarding this:

8.2.1. One could ask, first of all, whether the sociohistorical conditions under which Africans came to and settled in the United States might have facilitated the importation or development of pidgins or creoles. With respect to importation, Stewart (1967), Dillard (1972), and Hancock (1986) favor the hypothesis that many slaves arrived in the American colonies and the Caribbean already speaking some variety of West African Pidgin English (WAPE) or Guinea Coast Creole English (GCCE). Rickford (1987a:46-55) and Schneider (1991:30-33), among others, feel that such slaves were probably not very numerous. However, the case for significant creole importation from the Caribbean in the founding period has been bolstered by recent evidence that "slaves brought in from Caribbean colonies where creole English is spoken were the predominant segments of the early Black population in so many American colonies, including Massachussetts, New York, South Carolina, Georgia, Virginia and Maryland in particular." (Rickford 1997:331).

My ruminations around this subject center on whether it is appropriate to correct a child speaking AAE (implying that it is wrong) or allowing the child to maintain parallel dialects with the idea that it is just another tool to help him better assimilate into black culture if he happens to need it.

I understand that if my child interviews for a job with Chase Manhattan speaking AAE, he's not going to get it. Language is always embedded in the socioeconomic and political fabric of a culture. That being said, language is neutral--what makes one dialect superior to another, and why?

At the same time I started thinking about this I coincidentaly picked up the book "Black Skin, White Faces". Fanon describes in great length the colonization of Martinique by the French, and how it was considered that the natives who assimilated the language of their oppressors were considered the "good negroes" for having abandoned their native creole. It appears at this time there is a movement afoot to reclaim their native language.

My son attends a daycare that is staffed entirely by AA women. The children are all AA with the exception of one asian, one white, and a couple of hispanic kids. This is where my son spends most of his days. This is where he learns. I have heard AAE spoken here, and I consider it another opportunity for him to internalize an aspect of black culture.

Finally, dialect is more than just syntax. It has rhythm, cadence and patterns. It spills over into other aspects of culture. It also falls on a continuum. For those of you who insist that it is only bad grammer, I can only recommend that you learn more about it, or at the very least give me a source to show that I am wrong. I happen to think that the transmission of culture involves more than just hanging a picture of MLK on the wall and sending my kid to culture camp once a year. If this is a tool that I as a CC parent could encourage to help him connect to SOME blacks some of the time, than so be it.

[marcav]

Here's an interesting article:

Bryan McLucas
Lin 404T
Dr. Lanehart
28 October, 1996

A Sociolinguistic Interview
Irving and I sit across from each other at a vintage `60's Formica table, my trusty Panasonic RN-111 micro-cassette recorder in hand. He is a black male in his mid 20's who grew up in a region of Atlanta called the "SWAts" (South West Atlanta), for the most part, except for the five years that he spent in a little Georgia town called Hogansville with his grandmother. After high-school, he joined the Army and then went on to college. This is where we are now. Irving and I are both in the same AAVE class, and we discussed some of the topics that have been brought up in that class over a banana and a bowl of cereal.

After Irving explained his background to me, which situations in his life he felt had the strongest influence on his idiolect. He had learned his speech style, in part, from his parents (who are both college graduates) from his teachers and from television. The biggest influence, however, was his grandmother. "She was a huge influence, (II.2)" he replied. He went on to say that both she and his grandfather were schoolteachers. This had an enormous impact on the way that he spoke because he was always being corrected by his grandmother for using improper grammar. Although at the time she was retired, Irving's grandmother had been a kindergarten teacher -- so she was accustomed to teaching children Irving's age how to speak. I asked if the types of things that she corrected were AAVE-isms or normal, everyday kid-learning-how-to-speak-isms. "She didn't care what wordage' I used." He went on to say that his grandmother used AAVE so she was not trying to dissuade him from speaking it. She wanted for him to know how to speak correctly so that he could code-shift when necessary. There was even code-shifting within his family. There were some situations where his family would use AAVE, and some situations where they would use SE, even among themselves. Everyone, he explained, knew what each language was and utilized it. "It's [SE's] a weapon that you use wherever you need to go if you're black. (II.3)"

After his grandmother taught him "correct" speech at such an early age, I was certain that when he returned to Atlanta there had to be a pretty significant difference in his speech vs. the urban kid's speech. He went on to explain the term "proper" to me. According to Irving, "proper" is the term that most African-Americans use to describe a fellow African-American who speaks Standard English, or they at least speak a more standard dialect than the accuser. This is how people described Irving in his childhood. "I did use to get in trouble for speaking proper,' (I.2)" he admitted. Irving was quick to point out that he didn't feel that he was not a speaker of AAVE, but rather that the people he surrounded himself with spoke it more heavily than he did. This lead way to Irving's spectrum theory (I.2).

The spectrum theory is that everyone's pattern of speech falls somewhere on a continuum. There is no true speaker of AAVE nor a true speaker of Standard English. To illustrate further, let's put the clear speakers of Standard English on the left of this spectrum, and the clear speakers of AAVE on the right. It would depend on if someone fell to the right or left of your own position on that scale whether you considered them an AAVE or an SE speaker. Also, their distance from your position would indicate how severe you considered their dialect. Irving wasn't sure where he fit on this scale, but from my observation he would be in the SE half, at the very least. Keep in mind that this scale assumes that someone speaks the same way to everybody and ignores code-shifting, which he feels applies to him "all day long."

On the subject of code-shifting, I asked Irving which situations he would apply to SE and in which situations AAVE would be more preferable. He was quick to point out that SE, the Language of Wider Communication, is the only language that is acceptable in a corporate environment (I.4). In other words, that language has a certain utility for him, and "otherwise [he] wouldn't care necessarily to speak Standard English." He would, however make sure that his children understand the mechanics of how to use SE because he feels that it is an integral part of functioning in a formal setting and this is how the language was presented to him by his grandmother.

When asked about the benefits of AAVE, I received two answers -- the descriptive nature of the language has more utility and secondly, one would receive more social acceptance. The latter ties in to the social theory of group acceptance. To quote directly, "social acceptance is probably the number one functional reason [for speaking AAVE] (I.4)." "Fitting in" seems to be a reoccurring motif, and I wondered if maybe this idea of group cohesion includes a degree of exclusion. Irving feels that exclusion definitely goes on, but that it is a byproduct of AAVE, rather than a goal. I asked how he viewed white people that used AAVE and he expressed a little dissention about the matter.

Originally, Irving could not accept a white person using an African-American dialect. Eventually, however, he realized that some whites have grown up in the same environment that he did, and that it is just as true a language to them as it is to him. As long as it isn't someone trying to come into something that they don't understand. Irving views this as patronizing. He then drew a puzzling analogy to the time he spent in Germany (I.5). He did not speak German before he got there, but as he learned more of the language he decided to throw himself into it and use the language around native Germans. He claimed to feel totally out of place, originally, but that it helped him to understand what the Germans were all about. I wondered why this couldn't apply to AAVE also, and why whites would not be allowed to engage in a similar practice to try and understand black culture. It became clearer to me when Irving added that it was all about respect. German has an established language and culture, and that was respected by most people. Black Americans are people without a culture, or rather, they are people who have been robbed of their culture. Because of this, African-Americans are trying to create their own culture -- something that they can identify with -- and the continuation of AAVE is a large part of this. Irving doesn't think that AAVE, at this point, could be approached in a respectful manner by someone who isn't black.

The picture that he has painted for me is that language is a very tender matter for African-Americans. He relates that in the Army, which is disproportionately black, you would never use AAVE when talking to your superior (I.10). I asked, "if the majority of people in the army are black speakers of AAVE, then is this a case of the minority trying to control the majority?" "Yes, totally," he replied. He explains that the best way to subjugate people is to take away their language. Without language you don't have identity, you belong to no group, and you are thereby easier to control. I added that maybe African-Americans were trying to resist this control by holding on to this language. He explained that "it's like trying to make a linguistic culture... out of nothing." Irving then digresses slightly in saying that he thinks that it won't last, that the language is in a constant state of decreolization and will eventually phase out. I mistakenly added that because of the number of blacks and white were about the same, that the two languages would eventually fall together. This opened up a new topic over a common misconception about the black population (I.12).

Irving insists that out of 300 million people in this country, 10% are black, 7% are Hispanic, 4% are Asian and the rest are miscellaneous. He admits that even to him the numbers of blacks seem much higher, but they really only make up a relatively small percentage. It has to be the case in so many places, he goes on to say, that there are white people who have never seen a black person before. I related that in many places this was the case, especially among the affluent. When the children of these families meet a black person for the first time, they are very uncomfortable -- simply because it is unfamiliar. This doesn't make them racist, necessarily, it just means that they will be uncomfortable until they get some exposure. "That's all it is, man, totally," Irving replied, "...exposure." I then inquired, "would you say that the key to racial harmony is..."

"Exposure. Yep," he concluded (I.13).

Returning to my previous hypothesis about exclusionary practices, I asked if exposure is the key to people understanding each other and getting along, then was AAVE a vehicle by which exclusion and separation continues to occur. His reply, which concluded our interview, was as follows:


"I think probably no, because the exclusion is really from the other side of it because the Asian community, Hispanic, AAVE -- what have you -- all have a clear understanding of what SE is but the SE environment doesn't have a clear and total understanding of all of these other environments, so therefore it's sort of like, well, we're not being invited in the door so we're gonna create our own little tiny door and it is a ... progressional type thing ... building on AAVE, but at the same time it does exclude, but I feel like the people who are speaking AAVE... are not accepted socially or linguistically so therefore we have to create our own thing and then from that microcosm and the SE microcosm, that's where the problems come from. (I.14)"
I believe that this idea illustrates the rift that exists between black culture and white America. Each side believes that the other is excluding it. From a linguistic standpoint, whites are excluded -- for the most part -- from AAVE. This is good for African-Americans because it creates a culture for them with which they can identify. African-Americans also want for their culture to be accepted by mainstream society, but unfortunately, whites don't usually get a chance to immerse themselves in that culture to study it in the same way that Irving studied the German culture. Without first-hand exposure, whites, to some degree, are going to be uncomfortable around this culture and be less willing to accept it. There is a continual push-pull among African-Americans who want to belong to both the smaller group and at the same time be accepted in the larger. This idea not exclusively a group goal, but is even expressed on the individual level as shown in this interview. The language that the individual associates him or herself with seems to play a key role as to which group the individual wishes to belong. Speakers of SE identify with mainstream America, speakers of AAVE with the black culture created in opposition of the mainstream culture. Bi-dialectal people, like Irving, identify with the black culture almost exclusively, but seem to use SE as a tool or "weapon" within the mainstream society. Irving doesn't seem to accept standard English as anything other than a necessity. He doesn't believe that SE is an integral part of himself, but rather an extension of his ability to communicate with others. Standard English really is a weapon to Irving, and a weapon that he wields proficiently.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

View the transcript of this interview.

[BethanyB]

Can you explain why many white people also speak like this? And can you tell me the name for it because I have not read anything on that subject.

[marcav]

I have a white coworker who speaks AAVE, but aside from him, I don't know anyone else (with the exception of eminem) caucasion who speaks AAVE. It does have some features similar to Southern white English.

You can find a lot of information if you google AAVE. If you just type "the features of AAVE-intro" into your search engine, that site actually has sound speaker pictograms you can click on to hear grammatical & phonological examples of AAE.

You can also look up John R. Rickford, who is one of the foremost authorities on AAVE. He is Director of African Studies and professor of Linguistics at Stanford University. He won the 2000 American Book Award for his book, "Spoken Soul: The Story of Black English".

[BethanyB]

What I'm saying is that you heard your black child say something grammatically incorrect and assumed he got it from his black peers. Even though you have a two year old who is learning how language works and even though there are plenty of white people out there who use poor grammar.

I have heard about ebonics and have heard it be the butt of many jokes against AA's. My daughter is black and I am white. She goes to a school with mostly white children. She is two and just learning how to talk. I see no difference in her speech than the rest of the kids learning how to talk. I am a teacher of white students and was a teacher to black inner city students and have seen that some children are able to use slang and proper english and there are some students who have difficulty because of learning disabilities and or environment.

So if this language is attributed to AA's, than I would like to know where the studies are for all of the white or Hispanic people out there who speak the same way?
Why have I not heard about that?

What I don't like is the fact that you attribute your son's mistake as an ebonics thing. I would be quite upset if the mother of a child in my son's class attributed his poor speech to my child being black. If you are aware that all black people speak differently, why do you think the kids at your child's school speak ebonics? Are you sure your son got that phrase from a black child? What if it was a white child he got it from? What if it was simply a grammar error?

Education is the key and unfortunatly many people in inner cities or poverty stricken areas don't have education. Their errors are past down to their children. There just happen to be lots of inequalities out there that has put black people on the bottom of bucket. But there are plenty of uneducated whites out there who speak poorly as well.

[nickchris]

Can I say one thing, I am Black, and grew up in the city, nearby, no where near, and briefly in the hood, now I am in upper middle class level. Why think that Blacks have a culture of substandard, that you need to teach your child so he can relate? as most parents do, set high standards, same that I set for my Black children, and most Black parents that I have met do the same. The same as whites in the poor neighborhoods, poverty will affect those as Blacks in the poor neighborhood. Would you want your white child to emulate a stereotypical poor white person with poor speech? Ebonics is/was not a part of the historical culture, it was/is called not speaking properly, or slang, any aspect based on the slaves adapting to the Queens English from the African tribal dialect, is much different than poor speech, the adaptation was made by the slaves, because they had to. Adaptations of certain linguistic speech incorporating certain dialect from Africa, and tongue movement is much different than, where you be at, or who this? Let me tell you, most Blacks do not accept the Ebonics theory. Same with the immigrants of other races, from the old country etc; speech adaptations occured, and evolved over the generations, same thing with Blacks in general, from slavery days.
Old folks knew better, education is the key, and like the grandmother in the article, my grandmother always corrected our speech.. and as children our mistakes was based on basic child developmental level grammatical errors, or syntax issues.
The present argument of Ebonics being accepted as mainstream, IMO, is based on theory. Historical based speech, such as patois/creole in the islands, etc etc; and we all know despite what race we belong to, or where we came from, it is best to speak properly, in order to be successful.

Gullah

[marcav]

Sources please.