[ocracoke]

Originally Posted by loveajax

The other "assumption" is that because SOCIETY will see these children as black only, than we as parents have to accept that. I don't. It's different...in some ways, it's harder. As I mentioned, I have a best friend who is biracial. I also have a biracial cousin. I felt like my child would "benefit" from having those "role models" to look up to. I know that many biracial kids don't necessarily want to be "viewed" as either black or white or both. Why is that a bad thing that I thought that with the people in my life, I was better equipped to understand some of those feelings?

Love,

Thank you for explaining your situation with us. I hope that you did not find my questions or explanations insulting in any way. It was not intended to be. I was asking in order to educate myself and you have done that. It never occurred to me that people might chose biracial for the reasons that you have outlined. It makes perfect sense to me and I thank you for opening up my thought process to this in the future.

I can also understand that parents don't have and probably shouldn't look at their children in a specific way just because society will. My daughter looks AA to most people. But she really isn't. She is Ethiopian. Which makes her African. And she is being raised here. Which makes her American. But she does not have an ancestoral history with AA and a history of the oppression and slavery as AA families here for generations have. And unlike most AA she knows exactly where in Africa her ancestors originated from. I always tell people she is Ethiopian. We learn about the culture and the history. I want her to identify as Ethiopian. However, one of the things that I worry about is that society will view her as AA --okay that sounds bad the way it is written and I do not intend for it to -- and she really won't know the AA culture. My cousin was adopted from Korea and raised in an all white community. Now as an adult she lives in a large city and one of the things that she deals with is that she knows nothing of the Korean culture. She looks Korean but doesn't speak the language or know the traditions. She doesn't look white but she knows the language and the culture. And while she is comfortable with herself she often finds that she doesn't "fit" anywhere. The Korean community rejects her because she doesn't know and the white community rejects her because she doesn't look like. This has been very difficult on her especially when it comes to dating. I want to help my daughter travel those issues. She is Ethiopian, she looks AA, and she is being raised by a white single mother. I just think it is important for me to help give her the tools to travel in all the groups that she may identify with in some way. I think that since you have a network of biracial people in your life, you may already have that taken care of.

Samantha

[loveajax]

Thank you, guys. I am sorry if I am being defensive - - I know I am. I can say honestly I really am trying to be the best parent I can....it's challenging as you all know! I definitely worry a lot about DD "fitting in" as you describe with your cousin, Ocracoke.

One of the things that "thrills" me really is reading statistics about how young people these days are so much more likely to be involved in interracial dating/relationships. My niece was dating a black boy and nobody cared (of course, they shouldn't I know...but I think that would have been pretty different even 10 or 20 years ago.)

Of course, then I read the newspaper and learn about the "proliferation" of nooses lately (I live in a large northeastern metro area) and I say, "yeah, we haven't come far at all."

I think regardless of how we got "here," we all are raising black kids in this country (or Canada, Karyn!), so I do really appreciate hearing from everyone's perspective.

[Vogi2002]

(((((hugs loveajax))))) I smile too when I see young couples holding hands that are from different races, wether it's CC, Hispanic, Latino, AA, Asian, etc.

I'm sorry if I made you feel defensive. You were awesome and put a WHOLE different perspective in my head as to why someone comes to thier decisions. When people talk to me about thier choices, I try to not jump to conclusioins just because I don't know the whole story.

[adopting_again]

Sorry, don't know how to do quotes...Vogi I believe asked: yes, my husband would be fine with the father being white and the mother being black...it's not a preference in that sort of way. And he is okay with other races (hispanic, pacific islander, etc) being in the mix with AA.

Why not full AA? The only answer I have for that (aside from the obvious prejudice) is the comments our cop neighbor and his wife made about the low-income (black) neighborhood up our street. I started out with the same feelings as he did, but I research more than him and understand that there's little difference to white people...if they have black pigmentation, they're black...and black people, if they have one drop of black blood, they're black (I wish to enter here that I speak in the generalities of our society before I ruffle any feathers). I have come to the determination that it matters not, 100% or less AA, it's all okay by me. And I appreciate this vein of discussion, however the original replies were very angry sounding (if a post can indeed "sound" any way).

Yes, it is a travesty that our society devalues based on skin color. Yes, our adoption was (substantially) less expensive and (tremendously) quicker because we adopted BR (same cost as full AA, longer wait (just so you know, not b/c I agree/disagree)). Was this the primary reason we adopted BR? NO. We simply wanted to grow our family! It just happens that we're in an area of the nation that AA and AA/ are considered special needs because the lack of families. We made our choice based on a lot of introspection of whether we could raise our child in an appropriate (for both cultures) way. I don't know who mentioned it prior, but someone questioned it may be the amount of culturalism we (whoever chooses BR over AA) can transfer to our children if they are full AA, and that's huge where I live. I can tell you, the local schools are 95% CC, and a mere 3% AA. It's very scary from where I'm standing that my children may not fit in anywhere, may not have another child or two that are black in their classes. I just hope that as this area develops, "minority" races are comfortable moving in. You ask, why don't we move? Ha, we just did, unfortunately, the racial composition declined even when we were sure it would at least be the 17% it was before. We should've checked...it was our stupidity, but suburban sprawl should assist in it in the next 10 years (I know a horribly long time). Believe me, we've thought of all this. anyway, sorry so long winded...

[Vogi2002]

Originally Posted by adopting_again

. And he is okay with other races (hispanic, pacific islander, etc) being in the mix with AA.

Why not full AA? The only answer I have for that (aside from the obvious prejudice) is the comments our cop neighbor and his wife made about the low-income (black) neighborhood up our street. I started out with the same feelings as he did, but I research more than him and understand that there's little difference to white people...if they have black pigmentation, they're black...and black people, if they have one drop of black blood, they're black (I wish to enter here that I speak in the generalities of our society before I ruffle any feathers). I have come to the determination that it matters not, 100% or less AA, it's all okay by me. And I appreciate this vein of discussion, however the original replies were very angry sounding (if a post can indeed "sound" any way).

I'm so sorry, I know this is going to sound horrible. But what makes you think that your husband will be able to raise a BR child if he has these complex's? I don't understand how he can be prepared to raise a child with AA heritage, even if it is combined with another heritage. Obviously his decision to not accept full AA is not about having the commonality of race, if he is okay with other races mixed with AA, it's about a deeper reason. He sounds like my dh did and I will warn you that the feelings he have (from what I understand from your post) ARE forms of racism. He REALLY needs to come to terms with these before your child is old enough to understand.

I don't meant to offend but these complexes that you talk about your dh having are SO offensive to me, wether I have a AA child or not. I can't imagine how a BR person would feel, it's not ANY better than someone who is full AA I can tell you that.

[KarynB]

I have to agree with Vogi...I think that if you are raising children of any ethnicity you must be 100% free of any kind of prejudices - not "I am ok with you being 1/2 black/hispanic/etc, but not full". How will you teach them to have pride in their background if you are not proud of it yourself? (or if your husband isn't?) Not just "ok" with it - but celebrate, express and love the fact that they are AA. And even though they are BR - they ARE AA, too.

[sbaglio]

I think the fact is that people are at different stages in their lives, and in their thoughts about adoption. And who is "100% free of prejudices"? I venture to say that NOBODY is. I can say for a fact that we (and I'm sure most adoptive parents) thought about these issues at length before making a decision. I don't think that attacking people for their views will help them, frankly. If you have reached a place in your life where you are comfortable, bravo. But not everyone shares your views, and they may be comfortable in their own views, regardless of whether you are comfortable with them or not. I just feel like some are bashing others for decisions that are very, very personal. Just my opinon.

[adopting_again]

I never said that he wasn't displaying some racism, I believe we all do (or at least did) at one time or another in our lives. But, as I have stated before, he isn't as far along his racism break down as I am. He also has not said "no" to a child of full AA descent. Perhaps it is that he likes the looks of a biracial child over a full AA, and yes, I understand that is racism...I get it, so please don't preach to the choir.. He knows his limitations and concerns, but he adores our DD and will adore any additional children we have. God will present us with the right child at the right time and the circumstances that will help us to grow to battle racism as a family. Already I battle it daily as the primary "caregiver" for my children and the one who does the shopping. He doesn't go to the store and stand in front of the "Ethnic Hair Care" section determining what product is best for our angel, I do. this week as I was doing just that, I actually upset a black woman just for being there. The young man that was with this young woman (whether friend, husband, or boyfriend, I do not know), actually had to tell her to "just relax" b/c my white self was there (w/o DD). Did she think I was going to paint swastikas or something...I have no idea, I know that she was uncomfortable with my looking at those products. I know racism is real and that we have committed to dealing with it daily for the rest of our lives. I understand that it'll be harder for my DD than it is for me, my DH and my DS. I know that she didn't choose her circumstances. I just have to do the best I can and hope and pray it's good enough to give her pride in herself. My DH stands beside me in doing so, he just is sheltered from it more than I. I don't believe he is a worse person b/c he knows his limitations any more than I think those of you who know you can take on the challenge are perfect. We all do our best and again, I say at least he knows his limitations at this time. Oh, and for the record, he feels like since we already have a BR child we should continue on that vein so that she (and any additional child we have) has support growing up, and some of his concern is that by adopting AA he will diminish her needs. (funny the things you remember from discussions when you're on a rant huh)

[Vogi2002]

I was not attacking, nor was I preaching. This is an open forum and I was stating my opinion, based soley on what you have said.

I do not believe that you "deal with racism" as you go, with the child already in your household. I believe you deal with it BEFORE the child comes. The saying "no" to AA isn't what concerns me...it's the racist tendencies that you yourself say he has and displays. I do not think that what you are saying are only "little things" either. The black neighborhood comment is BEYOND offensive, the oldest form of racism.

This is all just my opinion.

And for the record, I do NOT think everyone has racist thoughts, I don't think this is just "normal" so should be accepted. When adopting transracially it is your responsibility to make sure you ARE 100% free from prejuduces, or at least 90%.

[manni28]

Which makes her African. And she is being raised here. Which makes her American. But she does not have an ancestral history with AA and a history of the oppression and slavery as AA families here for generations have. And unlike most AA she knows exactly where in Africa her ancestors originated from. I always tell people she is Ethiopian. We learn about the culture and the history. I want her to identify as Ethiopian. However, one of the things that I worry about is that society will view her as AA --okay that sounds bad the way it is written and I do not intend for it to -- and she really won't know the AA culture.

I am a woman of African descent (I’m “pure” AA) and I must tell you, your daughter will be seen as AA and most likely identify with the AA population (which is something to be proud of). The AA culture is a blending of African and American culture (we been here since this nation was founded). I don’t know how much exposure you have had when dealing with middle-class and affluent AA’s, but our culture/ lifestyle is EXTREMLY different from the negative and derogatory images that you see on TV and in certain neighborhoods.

We are resilient people who have made a lot of strides and progress since slavery. I think if would be best for you to expose your daughter to the affluent side of the AA population-it’s probably the population she will identify with. After all, in America ( and the world) she will seen as a woman of color or of African descent.

[KarynB]

Well said, Vogi - I won't add to this as I agree with what you've said here....

and thanks for your insights manni!

Karyn

[sbaglio]

Originally Posted by manni28

I am a woman of African descent (I’m “pure” AA) and I must tell you, your daughter will be seen as AA and most likely identify with the AA population (which is something to be proud of). The AA culture is a blending of African and American culture (we been here since this nation was founded). I don’t know how much exposure you have had when dealing with middle-class and affluent AA’s, but our culture/ lifestyle is EXTREMLY different from the negative and derogatory images that you see on TV and in certain neighborhoods.

We are resilient people who have made a lot of strides and progress since slavery. I think if would be best for you to expose your daughter to the affluent side of the AA population-it’s probably the population she will identify with. After all, in America ( and the world) she will seen as a woman of color or of African descent.

[quote=manni28]

Well, I am a person of African descent who was born in the US, and grew up in both Africa and in the US. And I completely disagree with the initial premise of this posting. MANY, MANY of my friends of African descent identify as AFRICAN, not as African-American, no matter how society here sees them. In case you didn't know, there is a distinct difference between how most people of direct (grandparents or parents) African descent, and AAs see themselves. I personally identify with fellow Africans, and have a different outlook on life in the US, and many of my friends in the same boat do as well. To state categorically that someone will identify with the AA community if they are Ethiopian, as a fact, is purely speculative. The Ethiopian community is very large in the US, and I believe that many identify themselves within that community, or bridge the gap between that and others.

As much as this may upset some, I do not think that the AA community is simply a "blend" between the African community and the American community. There is a world of difference. We are all black (and some are not), true, and connect on that level. But in terms of cultural heritage, it is not a "blend", but quite distinct, in my opinion. That's neither good nor bad, it just is.

Too often we allow ourselves to be defined by others, and if your daughter has such a rich cultural heritage as as that of Ethiopia, why should she forego it for another that is not hers in origin? So in terms of how your Ethiopian daughter will identify, I say allow her to identify as she wishes, and don't assume that she will feel a certain way just because of the way society views her.

[manni28]

Well, I am a person of African descent who was born in the US, and grew up in both Africa and in the US. And I completely disagree with the initial premise of this posting. MANY, MANY of my friends of African descent identify as AFRICAN, not as African-American, no matter how society here sees them. In case you didn't know, there is a distinct difference between how most people of direct (grandparents or parents) African descent, and AAs see themselves. I personally identify with fellow Africans, and have a different outlook on life in the US, and many of my friends in the same boat do as well. To state categorically that someone will identify with the AA community if they are Ethiopian, as a fact, is purely speculative. The Ethiopian community is very large in the US, and I believe that many identify themselves within that community, or bridge the gap between that and others.

Let's be honest, many Africans come to America thinking or assuming they will be seen as "different" or "better accepted" than the native born AA and find out, in A VERY BRUTAL WAY, that we are ALL seen as the same.

As stated before I am a American of African descent: my ancestor have fought in EVERY war this nation has had. This country is the only country I have known. It is the country that I was born, raised and will die in. My culture IS a blend of Euro-American culture, and my ancestors African customs ( example, "it takes a village to raise a child") that have been passed down from generation to generation. I see myself as an American of African descent, and there is nothing wrong with being that!

As stated before, I have seen many Africans who identify with the AA community, especially after being told in A VERY BLUNT WAY they are seen as AA. After all we all come from, or originated from, the same continent-right?

-Manni28

[sbaglio]

Originally Posted by manni28

Let's be honest, many Africans come to America thinking or assuming they will be seen as "different" or "better accepted" than the native born AA and find out, in A VERY BRUTAL WAY, that we are ALL seen as the same.

As stated before I am a American of African descent: my ancestor have fought in EVERY war this nation has had. This country is the only country I have known. It is the country that I was born, raised and will die in. My culture IS a blend of Euro-American culture, and my ancestors African customs ( example, "it takes a village to raise a child") that have been passed down from generation to generation. I see myself as an American of African descent, and there is nothing wrong with being that!

As stated before, I have seen many Africans who identify with the AA community, especially after being told in A VERY BLUNT WAY they are seen as AA. After all we all come from, or originated from, the same continent-right?

-Manni28

I agree - we DO originate from the same continent. And I admire the contributions that African-Americans have made to this country. I didn't mean to sound as if I was negating those contributions. I think that the African diaspora is amazing and valuable. I am just saying that one cannot expect that there will not be some evolution in the culture after hundreds of years apart (Africans and AAs).

My point is that it does NOT matter how society sees you - that child has a rich heritage as an Ethiopian. Believe me, few Africans will start identifying themselves as AAs just because society sees them as such. If you are speaking about 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants, that's a different story, and I would agree with your assessment. I live among Africans, go to church with them, socialize with them, speak my native language when I am among them. I know my people.

Our difference is in perception - I am not concerned with how I am seen by society, and nor should this child who is adopted from Ethiopia. If her mother teaches her about who SHE is, not about who people around her think she is, then that is the most important determinant for her identity. That does not mean that she will not be influenced by people's perceptions - she may well be. But she cannot live by other people's restrictions.

As to a definition of culture - Is there lobola (brideprice) in the AA culture? Does the paternal aunt guide young AA girls about puberty? Do young AA girls go through puberty rituals? Are there beliefs in animism here, or blessings from the ancestors? Do the ancestors rise to certain levels in belief, with hierarchical standing? Is there a belief in traditional healers here, who are believed to have been filled with the spirit of an ancestor? Despite there being differences among African countries, these are a very small number of examples of what I am referring to when I speak of "culture", quite different from the universal quote "it takes a village". There ARE differences between AA and African cultures. Again, I am not saying that this is a bad thing - it just is.

I challenge you (or anyone) to go to Africa and try to live amongst the people, experience the cultures for yourself (if you haven't had the opportunity as yet - you may have, I don't know). There's a reason many AAs come back and state that they never felt more American there. And there are many reasons why many, many Africans in the US feel largely alienated, even from AAs.

Just my opinion (and my experience).

[ocracoke]

Wow! I am loving this debate. I appreciate all the insight and opinions that people are having.

I, in no way, was trying to separate my daughter as an Ethiopian away from the African American community. Her day care center is mostly taught by teachers who are AA. At least 75 % of the kids are AA. I hope that she finds a comfort for herself in that culture. And I do realize that a lot of people will view her as AA. I know that 3 years ago I would not have been able to tell the difference between people who are AA versus Ethiopian by sight. Now I mostly can. And I will say that my acceptance (as a white woman) in the AA community has grown simple by having a child who looks AA in my home. But I will also say that anybody who has had exposure to the Ethiopian culture instantly knows that she is Ethiopian. Other adoptive families, people who have traveled there, people who are from there. When you are exposed to a culture/race/religion you begin to see the little things that can be overlooked by the novice. She is Ethiopian. She is from a city in Ethiopia that has a strong history. She comes from one of the oldest cultures. She was obviously loved by her birth parents and I find that one of the ways that I can best honor their part in her life is to try to give her a peice of her culture that she would have received if she had grown up there. I know that I will be gravely inadequate at it but I want to try. I will, much more easily, give her the American culture as well. I guess as a German/English person who was adopted into a family that is half Russian Jews and half Irish Catholics I find that I am lacking something. With my hips nobody doubts that I am German. I don't look jewish but I know the traditions. I don't look Irish but I know the culture. What I don't know is German culture (other then world war II). I want my daughter to fit into my world, the AA world, and the Ethiopian world. All of which are very different in some ways. And as she grows she can decide for herself who she is and how she identifies. I just think it is my job to provide her with knowledge and understanding as best as I can.

Thank you for the debate.
Samantha