[lemonchutney]

Just wanted to say...

The paramount idea in "The Primal Wound" is that separation from the mother at birth causes the infant to feel a sense of loss equal to an older child's loss of a mother. If this were true, wouldn't all infants in foster homes and nursery wards be crying inconsolably and non-stop, or wouldn't they refuse nourishment, or exhibit SOME sign of extreme sadness? Upon reading "The Primal Wound," I saw that the author offers no proof, no study findings for the idea that abandonment/relinquishment/surrender (whatever you want to call it) causes such anguish in the babies who are abandoned/relinquished/surrendered. She does talk about the fact that babies can distinguish and prefer their own mother to other women. But we know from the relatively new practice of open adoption that this preference is short-lived once a new bond is formed with an adoptive mother. The author fails to show how the initial preference of the baby for the biological mother translates into long-term psychological damage done by separating mother and child at birth. Furthermore, she fails to show that the bonds built between adoptive mothers and their babies are any less strong and supportive than the bonds between biological mothers and the babies they raise.

The Primal Wound as Nancy Verrier describes it has not been proved, but that is not the same as saying that SOME adoptees, me included, don't feel a very real loss by not having been raised by their birth parents. We can see this just by reading these boards.

-lemonchutney

[debsdone]

I agree with this post, as I am currently reading the book. Thinking about this, I would go on and say, if there is a "primal wound", so what? There is a strong possibility that we adoptees are STILL better off than we would have been if not relinquished. Families deal with all sorts of things, death, illness, poverty, and so on. A couple of my babies were taken from me and put in intensive care for several days. Are they wounded? I don't mean to downplay a possible "wound" for those who feel they have one, but we still have to do our best and get on with it. Dispite the negative stories that are told, I truly believe that adoption is something that really helps our world. It isn't perfect and could definately use some fine tuning. But it serves a much needed purpose in this world. To be apart from ones b-family for a lifetime is different for all of us. I have seen or heard of some happy reunions, and also some rocky ones. And some where it seems that the folks involved simply don't care for one another much. That is sad, but I understand it. I have become familiar with many b-mothers here. some from reading their posts, and some I have gotten to know personaly. Some I would LOVE to have as my b-mother, some I would never have a relationship with. when a persons value system offends me, it does not matter what their blood relationship is to me, I won't bother. I gave birth to my 5 children, I almost died once doing it. And the past 25 years have been spent raising them. If I did something, or became someone who offended them, I do not believe they owe me anything now. I continue to hold myself accountable for my actions and reactions, and I continue to make the necessary compromises to maintain our relationship. I raised them right so I really don't have to worry. If I had been in a situation where another person had raised and taught them, I would feel I had to compromise 200% more. that is my idea of unconditional love of my children. No matter if I or they are wounded or not. Love, Debi

[A_mothers_love]

I to have read primal wounds, I believe that it has the ultimate in what is really going on. There are two different "types" of adoptee's, the pleaser and the one who acts out, these two personality types are of course very different. It is a proven fact that all of us are born with our personality traits built in through genetics. though a persons thinking can change through inviroment the main focus is basic personality in a baby. Even though the baby may not possess a honor roll graduate position, the baby still could be a "pleaser" in personality, this baby would be the wonderful quiet baby who slept all the time, trauma works differently on different personalities, some of us when faced with trauma run into ourselves, basically creating another world which we can rely on always, the other more extrovert in thinking will cry out and be inconsolable, this baby is also the one who would be more likely to seek social stance away from the adoptive family because they dont belong. anyway that is the scientific way of looking at adoption.
Hugs
Melissa

[esp1222]

I have not yet read "The Primal Wound", but it seems like lots of people on these boards swear by it. I am an adoptee and do not feel that I have a "primal wound". I wasn't necessarily detatched from my bmom, because she never saw or held me. She never knew that I was a girl until I called her at age 25 and told her. I do tend to have issues thinking that people will leave me, although no one really ever has. My bmom didn't leave me, Erika, she left a baby that she didn't want. It wasn't personal. It wasn't like she took me home on approval for a few days and decided she didn't like me so she took me back. (although I do realize that some adoptees were truly abandoned) I personally feel that my issues surrounding people leaving me were created in my head, only because I have been told I was adopted. I don't think it is because of some deep seeded psychological problem.

So many adoptees feel that they weren't wanted, but I feel the opposite. When I was in the fifth grade, a boy used to tease me about my parents not wanting me, so they gave me away (this was the first and only experience I ever had with someone teasing me about being adopted)...I went home everyday crying until finally one day my mother told me to go to school and when this boy made fun of me once again by telling me that I wasn't wanted, to tell him that "at least my parents picked me out, yours just got stuck with you"...after I said that to him, he never teased me again, and we remain friends to this day. (as a side note, the boy lived with alcoholic parents...his father died at a young age of cirosis...but he appeared to come from a well-to-do family and have no problems)...I said all that to say this. Everyone has issues and problems, we can't blame all of our problems on the fact that we were adopted, I for one thank God each day that he put me where he did. Exactly where I belong.

I know I was rambling, just some thoughts I wanted to share..

Erika

[Leezamarie]

Erika what a great post!! I agree with you so much. I was not in anyway planned on by my bparents, but I ended up where I was supposed to be - with two loving parents who wanted me very much.

[A_mothers_love]

Oh my goodness my heart goes out to you, A mother does not "just give away" her baby. a baby is always loved by their first mothers, always wanted. Other mothers go through Trauma too, some of us have built a wall to protect ourselves, sometimes it is easier to forget than deal with the pain. I to would not have known if my baby was a girl or boy if I didnt demand to know, that was in 1988, they didnt want to tell me, nor would they let me hold him or see him, I wanted to but I was not allowed. Doctors will do almost anything to take a baby away from its mother. It is a scientific fact that after a child is born to a woman the child and the mother are connected, a scientist actually found mother and child hormones (sorry forgot the right word) in the brains stems of each thirty years after birth. It also is a scientific fact that bonding does occur before birth and if allowed will continue on for one month (hence the primal wound) if it is severed there is no bonding only grief, this happens in mothers and children. I am not an adoptee I am an exiled mother so I cant tell you how you feel but I have felt for fourteen years the pain of a non existant limb, as if I am missing something it is very painful, most of us other mothers choose to bury that pain because of socieities thoughts...we were not suppose to care, were were just suppose to get on with our lives. It is TOTALLY impossible to get on with your life after the loss of a child. It is a death with no funeral. Other mothers create a different world were pain does not exist, we virtually walk around pretending to be different people, when really all we want to do is run to our children and hold them tight. So even though you may not feel the primal wound refered to in the book does not mean it does not exist, for the subconcious is a powerful thing.
Hugs
Mleissa

[lemonchutney]

I'm sorry for your loss. My heart truly goes out to you. I wish you never had to experience this pain you're feeling. I know birthmothers feel they are missing a limb. I know they feel empty. I am sorry the situations exist that cause birthmothers to have to surrender their babies. I wish all mothers had the power and freedom to choose to keep their babies.

At the same time, please please don't tell adoptees they are in denial or that they are "subconsciously" experiencing a primal wound.

You seem to need to believe that adoptees feel a pain that is similar to a birthmother's pain.

Perhaps you don't want to be alone in your pain, and want to project it onto others.

Perhaps believing in a primal wound helps you to feel important to your child, and all mothers want to feel important to their children. I can see that. I am not blind or hard-hearted

But by telling us that our feelings (or lack of feelings) are wrong, you are infantalizing us, and I find it extremely insulting.

You telling us that we feel something we don't feel is just as insulting as if I were to tell you that you don't feel what you say you feel.

[lemonchutney]

Melissa, Why do you say:

"..if it [the bond] is severed there is no bonding only grief, this happens in mothers and children."

What do you mean there is no bonding? I would lay down my life for my adoptive mother and she for me. Is this not bonding?

No, we don't bond with our birthmothers if we are separated on the day we are born. And we do not grieve for them when we are infants.

Grief is too complex an emotion for babies to feel. Assuming they are properly cared for by someone, newborn babies eat, sleep, and fill their diapers. Point me to a study that proves grief in infant adoptees. Sorry, hormones in brain stems don't prove the existence of the kind of emotional turmoil you are talking about. Assuming they are healthy, babies thrive and live their lives, without a shadow of the loss that birthmothers feel.

[debsdone]

Amen Lemonchutney. It is unfortunate that those who complain the loudest that their "feelings" aren't being validated can be so quick to impose a generalization. I am also a bit tired of hearing about statistics and "science". Both statistics and "science" can prove or disprove whatever we want. It simply depends of which studies you choose to believe. At 45, I KNOW how I feel about things, AND how I don't feel. If that threatens someone's sense of selfworth, the problem is theirs, not mine. I shouldn't need to "suffer" to validate my birthmother. My existance is enough to validate her and her decision. This gets so old! Nobody has a right to tell me, or anyone, how we should feel. Especially when it is just to serve a need in THEM to be important! Love, Debi

[esp1222]

I see what you are saying, but I do not agree with you...I am not experiencing any kind of primal wound. My bmom did not want to see me after birth...it was a choice she made. She also did drugs while pregnant with me and when I found her, she very quickly told me that if she had known that she was pregnant early enough, she would have aborted me. Not all bmom's feel like you do. Not all bmom's love their children. I DID NOT bond with my biological mother. I do believe that I bonded with those who nutured and cared for me. My adopted parents are my REAL parents...no one else is.

Also...thanks so much debsdone, lemonchutney and leeza, I totally agree with all your posts. It is nice to finally have some adoptees see things the way I do. . I thought I was the only one out here who was thankful to be born AND thankful that I was relinquished.

...

Erika

[epenn922]

There has been extensive research done on in-utero bonding. Not only with adoptees, but regular old babies who stay with their bmoms. Have you read any of it? Where are you getting this that a baby in-utero has no attachment and no emotion before birth? I have not seen one study to support that.

I am NOT saying, by any stretch of the imagination, that a baby cannot bond with an amom. I am also NOT saying that all adoptees are wounded. I do wonder, however, why those of us that have feelings of a hole at the core of our being due to being separated - that our beliefs and feelings are called BS and utter nonsense. Based on what? Just because you don't have a primal hole - GOOD FOR YOU!!! That does not negate us that do, indeed, feel it.

Just as any other segment of society, adoptees can not be lumped together as all of us experiencing any one thing. Wouldn't it be nice that instead of calling other's opinions and feelings BS, that we just realize that we've all had different experiences? One is no truer than another.

Elaine

[debsdone]

epenn, I am not sure who you are responding to, but I think you may have misunderstood. Nobody said the whole wound theory is bs. We have each expressed our beliefs about our own situations, and determined that the conclusion that ALL adoptees suffer this wound is what is bs. See? We are saying the same thing, don't attempt to lump us all together. We are on the same side. I believe the comment was about babies feeling this intense would at the time of seperation. Actually, there were several alternative explanations offered for why an adoptee would feel wounded. The fact that many adoptees do indeed feel this feeling was never in question. Sorry if you felt your feelings were invalidated. It is only that many proponents of this theory seem to feel very inclined to insist that it is a truth for all adoptees. And if you don't think so , you are in denial. THIS is what is causing the problems, this over simplification and gross generalization. Love, Debi

[lemonchutney]

I'm sorry that some of my words in this and other threads hurt your feelings. I apologize for using such dismissive language as "B.S." and "nonsense." I shouldn't have said those things.

I am coming from a place of love. I believe that many of the ideas in THE PRIMAL WOUND are destructive because they pathologize adoption and adoptees, worsen the guilt felt by b-parents, and marginalize adoptive parents.

I believe that much of the sense of woundedness felt by many, not all, adoptees could have been prevented with committed and sensitive parenting by adoptive parents, and through open adoption and opening of previously closed records. Open adoption would serve to alleviate the hurt feelings caused by a feeling of having been abandoned, and would also prevent genealogical bewilderment.

The only remedy for woundedness espoused by Nancy Verrier is years of costly therapy in which people who don't feel a wound are belittled with accusations that they are "in denial." This is not productive, and does not address ways to prevent adoptees' unhappiness from developing in the first place. I am not anti-therapy, but from my own experience I think that therapists who believe in the primal wound do so because it offers a simplified view of adoptee issues. I have experience with one such therapist, and she was a quack. Luckily, I didn't spend more than a few sessions with her, and was able to get help from a qualified person later.

No, I have not read much about in-utero bonding. I plan to do so. Can you recommend some good places to start? I believe that the bonding that is important for infants occurs by way of tactile senses: touch, smell, hearing, sight, and even taste. Holding the infant, feeding the infant, singing to the infant, caressing, kissing, and rocking the infant, these are the methods by which a strong parent/child bond is built and nourished. In-utero bonding might start this process, but I believe that it's only a start, and if interrupted, can be picked up by a loving adoptive mother (or father for that matter), with little more than a hiccup in the process.

[epenn922]

There is a lot of research out there. Here are a few websites that have in-utero information...

http://www.birthpsychology.com/

http://babyparenting.about.com/libra...y/aa081099.htm


Here are two small article on pre-birth bonding –

http://www.4therapy.com/consumer/lif...categoryid=509

http://www.childbirthsolutions.com/a...long/index.php

Elaine

[sam_i_am_71801]

The point of consciousness begins in the womb....I am an adoptee..reunited with my mother.......I remember her holding me after I was born .....and have shared with her word for word what she said to me when we parted..."we will be together again someday baby" she kissed me on the forehead and handed me over...........her love on that day I will never forget........how she cried.....the feel of her tears when they fell upon my face....we do remember.........and as for the primal wound.........the parting....even a baby has primal instincts...........that's what took over ....the will to survive......I was adopted at a year and 6 months old.........yes it was only survival......without need to know.....but I knew .........I chose to bury all instintual feelings for her..........I learned to love someone else that I would call mother. My adopted mother died when I was 5........so I was put back into the system........and readopted when I was eight.........when my adopted mom died I became what they call a child mute..........I did not speak..........for several years .......but I listened.............I graduated with a 4.0 average.........I did nothing but soak in everything that I heard..........so I learned.........I didnt just regurgitate.........I really learned. Each step we take in life......each life altering experience is for a reason.....it makes us who we are.........and we are strong........and we ARE ONE......I love each and every one of you and cry with you...............don't think that noone cares.......I hear your words and feel your hearts...........love always sammie.