[Missy M]

Please go back and read dlouis's question and try and answer it for me, too. That was my exact thought when you added your 2nd post. Why would anyone besides your birthmom have reason to use the phrase "since I gave you up?" I want to help you out, but I am confused about the question. Please clarify this for me / us. Thanks.....Missy

[Jackiejdajda]

Colin wrote.
>Am i wacked for still being 36 years old and still feeling unvalidated here?

Maybe its the words "gave you up" that you have a problem with.. Maybe those words are triggering you and sending you to a place where you feel 'given up'.

From.. Pictures Of A Childhood.. page 23
Alice Miller

It is therefor understandable that most people,
of my generation are never able to free themselves
of the compulsion to defend and protect their parents.
Probably I, too, would have remained trapped by this
compulsion and, because it is so all-pervasive, would
not even have recognized it as such, had I not come
in contact with the child within me, who appeared so
late in my life, wanting to tell me her secret.

She approached very hesitantly, speaking to me in
an inarticulate way, but she took me by the hand and
led me into territory I had been avoiding all my life
because it frightened me. Yet I had to go there, I
could not keep on turning my back, for it was my
territory, my very own. It was the place I had
attempted to forget so many years ago, the
same place where I had abandoned the child I
once was. There she had to stay, alone with her
knowledge, waiting until someone would come
at last to listen to her and believe her.
Now I was standing at an open door, ill prepared,
filled with all an adult's fear of the darkness and
menace of the past, but I could not bring myself
to close the door and leave the child alone again
until my death. Instead, I made a decision that
was to change my life profoundly: to let the child
lead me, to put my trust in this nearly autistic
being who had survived the isolation of decades.

end of quoting..

Alice Miller wrote about the sexually abused child but IMO that above applies to all of us who got lost in our childhood.

I believe reunion brings up emotions that have been buried for a long long time.. I know that is what happened with me..
I found my anger.. What an amazing thing that was..

I can not fathom what it is like to be actually 'given up'.. I am so sorry it happened to you..
And after writing this post I believe I understand what you are saying when you say you do not like that term..

Thank you..

Jackie

[sam_i_am_71801]

It doesn't bother me at all when my mom says "when I gave you up".........this is a time line so that I will know "when" she is talking about........to me it doesn't validate anything other than that moment in time. We mostly just refer to that time as "when we separated"

[sweetnoodle]

I stopped using the term "given up" after I was in reunification because I realized it might be painful for my birthmother, and also it doesn't really describe the situation as a whole, for me.

Secondly, I have had to discuss what I think Colin is saying with my children. When my daughter (a third party) asked, at the beginning of reunion, why my birthmom didn't keep me/gave me away . . . I don't know what words were really used . . . but even then I guess I had those moments of zoning and holding my breath for a moment while I tried to process my response-- is that the wet brick wall?

I am not prone to care that much about terminology either, just my and others' feelings and reactions. I guess, I may not understand totally what Colin is saying-- but who ever likes to hear that they were given up. Ummmm, that really makes me scream deep inside too. It's an oversimplification of what happened, and for someone who is not involved to say it would be really heartless. However, I'm sure they don't know how to phrase the things they want to ask.

[Sharon]

Sweetnoodle,
I understand how this phrase might be hurtful, and my question throughout this thread has been... as an adoptee, what wording would be less hurtful? Sam-I-Am indicated that she and her BMom usually refer to the adoption as "when we separated". Do you think that sounds better than "when I/ she gave you up"? I think it sounds better, but I'd like input from adoptees.

Colin, I appreciate the fact that you think it's okay for BMom's to use the term, but not third parties... however, if the term "gave up" is hurtful to adoptees, I do not want to use it. I would prefer to use wording that makes adoptees feel validated, as well as validating my feelings. I only need to know what the appropriate wording would be?

~ Sharon

[dl]

As an adoptee, I actually like Sam-I-Am's phrase "when we separated". It has a nice sound to it. However, I'm still confused about "giving the child a voice". At the time of separation, relinquishment, surrender, placing, giving up - or whatever one chooses to call it, the child does not have a voice.

Also, could someone please explain how "wording can make an adoptee feel validated". Exactly what is meant by "validated"?

[sweetnoodle]

Sharon,
I totally agree that sam's "when we separated" is a totally awesome phrase. I never saw or heard it on here before, and it is so much better then all other phrases. Somehow, other phrases cannot possibly represent the complexities of the circumstances of each reunion to those outside the triad. Thanks sam!

Here's phrases that have different things wrong with them:

"given up"
"I gave you up"
"you were relinquished"
"I placed you"
"You were chosen"
"God picked you out for us"
"We chose you"
"Your mommy couldn't keep you . . . "
"You grew in my heart instead of my tummy (negotible if you are talking to an adult as opposed to a child; or if you adopted a child that actually was with you for a while and you actually made the decision to adopt THAT child)
"God gave you to us"

Okay, sorry, I probably sound pretty cyncial, but remember, as was stated earlier or in another thread, the thoughts represented here are thoughts of a 35 year old who has processed information over a long period of time and formed opinions on the information. I'm not so sure any of those phrases would damage or hurt a child adoptee.

I was told I was chosen and special, and I believed it. In fact, the reason I am probably such an opinionated cuss now is because my adoptive parents had me convinced that I WAS special. Maybe I've only grown cyncial finding out I'm not! LOL

Well, bottom line, all my close friends have always labeled me a realist, not a cynic, and all those phrases now seem to UNtrue and remind me of a time long ago when adoptive parents shut out the world, adoptees were told they should too, and birthmothers didn't exist. It was not good.

Sincerely,

[Sharon]

Sweetnoodle,
thanks, you've given me a lot to think about!
I've never much cared for "God gave you to us" or "You were a gift from Jesus", both of which I've encountered in posts on this forum... however, not being an adoptee or an adoptive parent, I don't feel it's my business to poke my nose in and say, "Hey, that's a really lousy way to explain adoption to your kid!"
I agree, Sam's phrase is good... at least, it accurately describes MY feelings, and I would feel comfortable using it. Thanks for the suggestion, Sam.

I've also read, "You grew in my heart instead of my tummy", and it makes me want to respond with, "You grew in my heart as WELL AS my tummy!"

Although I don't want honest discussion to get lost in our efforts to be "PC" and constant worrying over terminology, I do think it's important that we find language that feels comfortable to all of us and that doesn't make any member of the triad feel excluded or invalidated. So, thanks for the suggestions and input.
~ Sharon

[sam_i_am_71801]

As a child when people would tell me I was special I would get mad because If I was "so special" why didn't I get to ride in the little yellow bus?................After all only the "special" kids got to ride that bus. Now that I'm all grown up........I now have PROOF that I should have been allowed to ride THAT bus.........lmao..........we really do put too much emphasis........into some words and some phrases...............

[Missy M]

OK...I am following this thread with interest since my goal here is to do no harm and try to never offend. I agree that the term "when we seperated" sounds lovely, BUT it does not represent what happened in the hospital after I gave birth to my daughter. To me IMHO, a seperation refers to a parting of the ways.... a MUTUAL decision to go seperate ways; to end a relationship and as I type this, I can see how some might see placement as such, but it simply does not feel like what I went through. I gave up my baby and the right to parent her. I can not sugar coat it. I did not lovingly place her so that a less fortunate (read: furtile) woman could be a Mommy, I did not think that I grew her for someone whose tummy wasn't working properly, I don't think this was what God had in mind when I scre**ed her dad, and I had no choice, which is what "when we seperated" implys to me. BTW: I am not hung up on terminology here; if Colin is offended, I will not use that term, plain and simple.
My baby and I did not seperate, her dad and I did; he was a bu** hole and I ran away from him, thankful for the seperation; my baby was torn away from my life because after banging around I became pregnant AGAIN after the birth of her sister, 1 year before and my parents refused to let me bring another kid home for them to support!
Again, I won't use the term after hearing that it offends or stirs up unpleasant connatations for anyone; but its exactly what I had to do to survive....it was the only choice I had....Missy

[sam_i_am_71801]

schism, breakup, divorce, parting, rupture, split-up, disunion, disunity, division, shedding, apartheld, dichotomy, dispersal, partition, detatchment, diffluence, dirempeion, dissection, separatism, trichotomy, disjointure, disjunction,disrelation, dissolution, divorcement, segregation, dissociatiion, disconnection, sequestration...........................however we choose to cloak it.......................or what ever we want to call it........it is still..........what it is........separation...........It's the "pain" of the separation that is what is really the topic

[Missy M]

[QUOTEOTE] ]Originally posted by angela dettloff
colin,
I just can't stop crying, I hear your pain and hurts me to know that my daughter may be feeling the same pain you are. just know that your mother loved you with all her heart and you are in her very thought. I don't think I've ever referred to her as being adopted. God did not mean for me to raise her. I was just the vessel that brought her into the world. I chose LIFE for her.
A big hug from me to you! [/QU[b]

I do not see myself as a chosen vessel; nor do I see what I did to concieve my daughter in the back of her dads Chevy as divine. I was lap- tied to a man at 16 and we ran out of condoms....If God, AS I KNOW HIM meant for someone else to raise her then why put her into my 16 year old unprepared body? We were not back there searching for a divine impartation, nor did we get one. If my earthly dad threatened to kick his azz for what we did, what makes me think my Heavenly Father would be so pleased??? Why was my dad so angry if I was simply fulfilling my role in life.
While it may help soothe the intense pain associated with placement of a child to think of yourself as simply a vessel to carry but not raise your child; its simply unreal to actually believe it; see IMO God detests sin and I don't believe He'd ask me to sin so that I could do His will..... And guess what; if an a-parent said to a birthmom what you posted here ie: you were just a vessel, God never meant for you to raise your child, there would be a riot......Missy

[Sharon]

"God did not mean for me to raise her. I was just the vessel that brought her into the world. I chose LIFE for her." ~ Angela Dettloff

Actually, an adoptee said that not long ago... ("Why do people search for their birthparents? The way I see it, my birthmother was only a vessel to bring me to my present family...")
Let me tell you, when I read that post, I almost burst a vessel... a blood vessel, that is. Of course, many forum members from all sides of the triad responded and gave the poster a "thumbs-down", and his post was eventually deleted.
However, if this birthmother wishes to think of herself as a "vessel", I guess that's her perogative... as long as she doesn't claim that I'm a vessel, that all birthmothers are vessels, or that anyone else is a vessel. I can see how it would be a comforting theory; as long as one is "just a vessel", one does not have to face the pain of having separated from one's own flesh and blood, one's own child. It's not a point of view I can personally relate to, but at the same time I do not find it personally offensive, only sad. The birthmother who called herself that was relating her own feelings about herself, not about anyone else.
I CAN relate to the feeling of being a hollowed-out shell of a human being, devoid of feelings. That pretty much describes me for the first decade post-adoption. It has only been in the last couple of years that I have been able to face and deal with my feelings re: adoption, and the emptiness inside me has filled up with emotions, some positive and some extremely painful.... still, any feelings are better that none at all.
~ Sharon

[sweetnoodle]

Colin-- come back, we're getting off topic.

Missy and Sharon,
I am a Christian and hold some pretty rigorous beliefs, but when I challenge some other Christians' thinking around the topic of sex/birth control/abortion/adoption, I am often looked at cross-eyed. I agree with both of you. I loved your post Missy. I wish everyone could be as "real" with the truth. I don't think the God I worship is responsible for my actions of free will.

Sincerely,

[Missy M]

Thanks Sharon...I did lash out a bit, I re-read her post and you are so right in pointing out that she does indeed have the right to refer to herself as a vessel, and to feel that it was divine intervention that used her to create her placed child for the expressed purpose of making another woman happy.....however, in my case it was Donald in the back seat of a 1966 Chevy Impala and I just hope my all seeing omnipotent Father was not in on this scheme and why after 31 years hasn't He enlightened me, and helped ease my burden? I remember reading that when He chose Mary as a vessel there was no backseat, no angry parents and no adoption plan made; she remained a virgin, I on the other hand did not.
To Nancy...thanks, I too am a Christian, in fact my oldest daughter is a minister @ Potters House here in Dallas, ( having just been ordained last month) and as a Christian, I simply can't believe what I did was either divine or proper. It was free will, free thinking and free *us*y that brought me to this point. Nothing God does to me causes me to suffer, feel pain or experience regret. He is so good to me; better than I am to myself.
I apologize for my earlier post; I insulted her by pointing out my feelings using her post. It may well be that her actions were indeed divinely inspired....mine on the other hand were not....Missy